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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Transformative change (Valerie Brown)
2. Can you help David? (Valerie Brown)
3. FW: Transformative change (Gregory, Wendy)
4. Re: FW: Transformative change (James Baines)
5. Re: FW: Transformative change (Ashwani Vasishth)
From: Valerie Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 09:48:34 +1000
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Subject: Re: [IntSci] Transformative change
Message: 1
Wendy Thanks for starting this off and to James
for challenging us straight off.
James I think 'change' needs an adjective, or
it's too total a word to apply in practice.
Change can be fast or slow; incremental or
total; personal or organisational; transactional
(internal to the system) or transformational
(changing the system). Words are funny
things. The idea of feasible change speaks
oddly to me - feasible to whom and with respect
to what? - unfeasible change would imply
impossibililty of change, and I can't think of
anything that couldn't change under some
circumstances. Even the sun mightn't rise if there was a galaxy disturbance?
But back to Wendy's question: I work with
transformational social learning and collective
thinking, and happy to share any of that.
Wendy what insights have you found so far?
Valerie
1. Transformative change (Gregory, Wendy)
2. Re: Transformative change (James Baines)
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From: "Gregory, Wendy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 13:59:11 +1200
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Subject: [IntSci] Transformative change
Message: 1
Hi all,
I've been corresponding with Val Brown about an issue we have both been
grappling with and we have a question (well, two really!) that we would
like to ask of the IntSci group:
Has anyone had success with ways to work within complex projects that
can open up fixed positions and enable transformative change? We would
like to start a dialogue on ways and means to effect transformative
change.
We could start by agreeing that any effective intervention must be time
and place based, with the process and actions being chosen by those
involved and affected. What we are looking for is contributions to the
set of processes already in use which are structured and disciplined -
i.e., they have already been trialled in a number of contexts and been
found to be useful in helping people explore the contexts and
consequences of the situations they are trying to deal with.
(And here's the second question ;-)):
Would it be useful to others in the mailing list if we get to hear about
some examples of how different people have used different processes for
exploring and re-framing issues and going on achieve transformative
action?
Thanks,
Wendy
P Think before you print
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From: James Baines <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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To: "Gregory, Wendy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
<IntSci@learningforsustainability.net>
References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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nz>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 14:17:25 +1200
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Subject: Re: [IntSci] Transformative change
Message: 2
I may be new to this - but one small point
I would have thought that the qualifier
"transformative" hardly adds anything to the concept of "change".
Are you referring to a particular type of
change when you use this terminology? or is this merely jargon?
by contrast, I am reminded of the Soft Systems
terminology "feasible change" where the
qualifier (feasible) does seem to add something meaningful.
cheers
James
At 01:59 p.m. 17/09/2008, Gregory, Wendy wrote:
Hi all,
I've been corresponding with Val Brown about an issue we have both been
grappling with and we have a question (well, two really!) that we would
like to ask of the IntSci group:
Has anyone had success with ways to work within complex projects that
can open up fixed positions and enable transformative change? We would
like to start a dialogue on ways and means to effect transformative
change.
We could start by agreeing that any effective intervention must be time
and place based, with the process and actions being chosen by those
involved and affected. What we are looking for is contributions to the
set of processes already in use which are structured and disciplined -
i.e., they have already been trialled in a number of contexts and been
found to be useful in helping people explore the contexts and
consequences of the situations they are trying to deal with.
(And here's the second question ;-)):
Would it be useful to others in the mailing list if we get to hear about
some examples of how different people have used different processes for
exploring and re-framing issues and going on achieve transformative
action?
Thanks,
Wendy
P Think before you print
This e-mail transmission and any attachments
that accompany it may contain information that
is privileged, confidential or otherwise
exempt from disclosure under applicable law
and is intended solely for the use of the
individual(s) to whom it was intended to be addressed.
If you have received this e-mail by mistake,
or you are not the intended recipient, any
disclosure, dissemination, distribution,
copying or other use or retention of this
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If you have received this communication in
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Valerie A. Brown AO, BSc MEd PhD
Emeritus Professor, University of Western Sydney
Director, Local Sustainability Project,
Fenner School of Environment and Society
Australian National University, ACT 0200
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ph/Fax 61 (0)2 62958650
http://www.sustainability.org.au
From: Valerie Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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To: Will Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
IntSci@learningforsustainability.net
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:24:05 +1000
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Subject: [IntSci] Can you help David?
Message: 2
Will can you help David with his posts?
IntSci@learningforsustainability.net
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 20:00:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: David Waltner-Toews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Valerie Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [IntSci] Transformative change
X-Originating-IP: [76.64.104.61]
X-Mailer: Zimbra 5.0.7_GA_2450.RHEL4_64
(ZimbraWebClient - SAF3 (Mac)/5.0.7_GA_2450.RHEL4_64)
I responded earlier, but for some reason, my
comments don't make it on to the listserve,as I am not recognized as a member.
David Waltner-Toews
Department of Population Medicine
University of Guelph
http://www.ovc.uoguelph.ca/personal/ecosys
Veterinarians without Borders/ Vétérinaires sans Frontières - Canada
www.vwb-vsf.ca
Network for Ecosystem Sustainability and Health
www.nesh.ca
Tel: 519-824-4120 ext 54745
Cell: 519-546-3204
Valerie A. Brown AO, BSc MEd PhD
Emeritus Professor, University of Western Sydney
Director, Local Sustainability Project,
Fenner School of Environment and Society
Australian National University, ACT 0200
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ph/Fax 61 (0)2 62958650
http://www.sustainability.org.au
From: "Gregory, Wendy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Precedence: list
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: <IntSci@learningforsustainability.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 12:38:46 +1200
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Subject: [IntSci] FW: Transformative change
Message: 3
Here's an email that didn't get through to the mailing list earlier.
-----Original Message-----
From: David Waltner-Toews [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 18 September 2008 12:43 a.m.
To: Gregory, Wendy
Cc: IntSci@learningforsustainability.net
Subject: Re: [IntSci] Transformative change
Someone commented about the "transformative" in
front of change & I erased the message too
quickly. If I gain weight, I am changed, but not
transformed. One can vaccinate all the children
in a community & change the child mortality, but
the community is not transformed in such a way
that the change is sustainable (Bill Gates will
have to come every generation & vaccinate again
because dependence has been created). So yes, the adjective is meaningful.
David Waltner-Toews
Department of Population Medicine
University of Guelph
http://www.ovc.uoguelph.ca/personal/ecosys
Veterinarians without Borders/ Vétérinaires sans
Frontières - Canada www.vwb-vsf.ca Network for
Ecosystem Sustainability and Health www.nesh.ca
Tel: 519-824-4120 ext 54745
Cell: 519-546-3204
================================
David was responding to James' email below:
--------------------------------
I may be new to this - but one small point
I would have thought that the qualifier
"transformative" hardly adds anything to the concept of "change".
Are you referring to a particular type of change
when you use this terminology? or is this merely jargon?
by contrast, I am reminded of the Soft Systems
terminology "feasible change" where the
qualifier (feasible) does seem to add something meaningful.
cheers
James
P Think before you print
This e-mail transmission and any attachments
that accompany it may contain information that
is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt
from disclosure under applicable law and is
intended solely for the use of the individual(s)
to whom it was intended to be addressed.
If you have received this e-mail by mistake, or
you are not the intended recipient, any
disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying
or other use or retention of this communication
or its substance is prohibited. If you have
received this communication in error, please
immediately reply to the author via e-mail that
you received this message by mistake and also
permanently delete the original and all copies
of this e-mail and any attachments from your computer. Thank you.
From: James Baines <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Precedence: list
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: "Gregory, Wendy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
<IntSci@learningforsustainability.net>
References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
nz>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 13:15:01 +1200
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed
Subject: Re: [IntSci] FW: Transformative change
Message: 4
David,
I'm prepared to accept that the adjective has
meaning, but your examples still leave such meaning implicit and unclear.
I might infer from what you have said that all
transformations involve change, but only some
changes result in transformations.
Therefore transformative change is a particular kind of change.
My dictionary tells me that
"transformation >noun a marked change in nature, form, or appearance"
still sounds a bit of a tautology to me.
If this phrase "transformative change" has a
particular meaning which is not immediately
obvious to the uninitiated, I'd appreciate a
simple explanation. Otherwise I can hardly
participate in this exchange of ideas.
cheers,
James
At 12:38 p.m. 18/09/2008, Gregory, Wendy wrote:
Here's an email that didn't get through to the mailing list earlier.
-----Original Message-----
From: David Waltner-Toews [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 18 September 2008 12:43 a.m.
To: Gregory, Wendy
Cc: IntSci@learningforsustainability.net
Subject: Re: [IntSci] Transformative change
Someone commented about the "transformative" in
front of change & I erased the message too
quickly. If I gain weight, I am changed, but
not transformed. One can vaccinate all the
children in a community & change the child
mortality, but the community is not transformed
in such a way that the change is sustainable
(Bill Gates will have to come every generation
& vaccinate again because dependence has been
created). So yes, the adjective is meaningful.
David Waltner-Toews
Department of Population Medicine
University of Guelph
http://www.ovc.uoguelph.ca/personal/ecosys
Veterinarians without Borders/ Vétérinaires
sans Frontières - Canada www.vwb-vsf.ca Network
for Ecosystem Sustainability and Health www.nesh.ca
Tel: 519-824-4120 ext 54745
Cell: 519-546-3204
================================
David was responding to James' email below:
--------------------------------
I may be new to this - but one small point
I would have thought that the qualifier
"transformative" hardly adds anything to the concept of "change".
Are you referring to a particular type of
change when you use this terminology? or is this merely jargon?
by contrast, I am reminded of the Soft Systems
terminology "feasible change" where the
qualifier (feasible) does seem to add something meaningful.
cheers
James
P Think before you print
This e-mail transmission and any attachments
that accompany it may contain information that
is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt
from disclosure under applicable law and is
intended solely for the use of the
individual(s) to whom it was intended to be addressed.
If you have received this e-mail by mistake, or
you are not the intended recipient, any
disclosure, dissemination, distribution,
copying or other use or retention of this
communication or its substance is prohibited.
If you have received this communication in
error, please immediately reply to the author
via e-mail that you received this message by
mistake and also permanently delete the
original and all copies of this e-mail and any
attachments from your computer. Thank you.
_______________________________________________
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__________ Information from ESET NOD32
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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
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******************************************************************
James Baines
Taylor Baines & Associates
PO Box 8620 Phone/fax: 64 3 3433884
CHRISTCHURCH e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
New Zealand http://www.tba.co.nz
******************************************************************
From: Ashwani Vasishth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Precedence: list
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: IntSci@learningforsustainability.net
References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
In-Reply-To:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 19:13:41 -0700
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Subject: Re: [IntSci] FW: Transformative change
Message: 5
Leaving aside the promise of non-participation
(:-)), I think there is a way to show that
change is not a singularity. At the very least,
there is marginal, incremental change, and there
is discontinuous, radical change. And I'm sure,
on a case by case basis, we could find a couple
of meaningful points in between as well.
I have no idea what was meant by the phrase
transformative change, nor why the originator
felt moved to link those two words. But the
word transformation begs to be used in its
transformative form, and change seems to follow as well as any other word.
In honesty, I've not been following this thread
(distractions abound). But could we have a
restatement of the substantive issue please?
Cheers,
-
Ashwani
Vasishth [EMAIL PROTECTED] (818) 677-6137
http://www.csun.edu/~vasishth/
http://blogs.csun.edu/sustainability
--------------------------------------------------------
Assistant Professor
Department of Urban Studies and Planning
California State University, Northridge
18111 Nordhoff Street, SH 208, Northridge, CA 91330-8259
--------------------------------------------------------
At 01:15 PM +1200 9/18/08, James Baines wrote:
>David,
>
>I'm prepared to accept that the adjective has
>meaning, but your examples still leave such meaning implicit and unclear.
>I might infer from what you have said that all
>transformations involve change, but only some
>changes result in transformations.
>Therefore transformative change is a particular kind of change.
>
>My dictionary tells me that "transformation >noun
>a marked change in nature, form, or appearance"
>still sounds a bit of a tautology to me.
>
>If this phrase "transformative change" has a
>particular meaning which is not immediately
>obvious to the uninitiated, I'd appreciate a
>simple explanation. Otherwise I can hardly
>participate in this exchange of ideas.
>
>cheers,
>
>James
>
>At 12:38 p.m. 18/09/2008, Gregory, Wendy wrote:
>>Here's an email that didn't get through to the mailing list earlier.
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: David Waltner-Toews [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>Sent: Thursday, 18 September 2008 12:43 a.m.
>>To: Gregory, Wendy
>>Cc: IntSci@learningforsustainability.net
>>Subject: Re: [IntSci] Transformative change
>>
>>Someone commented about the "transformative" in
>>front of change & I erased the message too
>>quickly. If I gain weight, I am changed, but not
>>transformed. One can vaccinate all the children
>>in a community & change the child mortality, but
>>the community is not transformed in such a way
>>that the change is sustainable (Bill Gates will
>>have to come every generation & vaccinate again
>>because dependence has been created). So yes, the adjective is meaningful.
>>
>>David Waltner-Toews
>>Department of Population Medicine
>>University of Guelph
>>http://www.ovc.uoguelph.ca/personal/ecosys
>>Veterinarians without Borders/ Vétérinaires sans
>>Frontières - Canada www.vwb-vsf.ca Network for
>>Ecosystem Sustainability and Health www.nesh.ca
>>Tel: 519-824-4120 ext 54745
>>Cell: 519-546-3204
>>
>>
>>================================
>>David was responding to James' email below:
>>--------------------------------
>>I may be new to this - but one small point
>>
>>I would have thought that the qualifier
>>"transformative" hardly adds anything to the concept of "change".
>>Are you referring to a particular type of change
>>when you use this terminology? or is this merely jargon?
>>
>>by contrast, I am reminded of the Soft Systems
>>terminology "feasible change" where the
>>qualifier (feasible) does seem to add something meaningful.
>>
>>cheers
>>
>>James
>>
>>P Think before you print
>>This e-mail transmission and any attachments
>>that accompany it may contain information that
>>is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt
>>from disclosure under applicable law and is
>>intended solely for the use of the individual(s)
> >to whom it was intended to be addressed.
>>If you have received this e-mail by mistake, or
>>you are not the intended recipient, any
>>disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying
>>or other use or retention of this communication
>>or its substance is prohibited. If you have
>>received this communication in error, please
>>immediately reply to the author via e-mail that
>>you received this message by mistake and also
>>permanently delete the original and all copies
>>of this e-mail and any attachments from your computer. Thank you.
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>IntSci mailing list
>>IntSci@learningforsustainability.net
>>http://mail.learningforsustainability.net/mail
man/listinfo/intsci_learningforsustainability.net
>>
>>__________ Information from ESET NOD32
>>Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3449 (20080917) __________
>>
>>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>>http://www.eset.com
>
>******************************************************************
> James Baines
> Taylor Baines & Associates
> PO Box 8620 Phone/fax: 64 3 3433884
> CHRISTCHURCH e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> New Zealand http://www.tba.co.nz
>
>******************************************************************
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>IntSci mailing list
>IntSci@learningforsustainability.net
>http://mail.learningforsustainability.net/mailm
an/listinfo/intsci_learningforsustainability.net
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