Hey Jason,
> From: Jason Wang <jasow...@redhat.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2020 2:18 PM
>
> On 2020/10/15 ??6:14, Liu, Yi L wrote:
> >> From: Jason Wang <jasow...@redhat.com>
> >> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 4:41 PM
> >>
> >>
> >> On 2020/10/15 ??3:58, Tian, Kevin wrote:
> >>>> From: Jason Wang <jasow...@redhat.com>
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 2:52 PM
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On 2020/10/14 ??11:08, Tian, Kevin wrote:
> >>>>>> From: Jason Wang <jasow...@redhat.com>
> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 2:22 PM
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 2020/10/12 ??4:38, Tian, Kevin wrote:
> >>>>>>>> From: Jason Wang <jasow...@redhat.com>
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 14, 2020 12:20 PM
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> [...]
> >>>>>>> > If it's possible, I would suggest a generic uAPI instead of
> >>>>>>> a VFIO
> >>>>>>>> specific one.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Jason suggest something like /dev/sva. There will be a lot of
> >>>>>>>> other subsystems that could benefit from this (e.g vDPA).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Have you ever considered this approach?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi, Jason,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> We did some study on this approach and below is the output. It's a
> >>>>>>> long writing but I didn't find a way to further abstract w/o
> >>>>>>> losing necessary context. Sorry about that.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Overall the real purpose of this series is to enable IOMMU nested
> >>>>>>> translation capability with vSVA as one major usage, through below
> >>>>>>> new uAPIs:
> >>>>>>> 1) Report/enable IOMMU nested translation capability;
> >>>>>>> 2) Allocate/free PASID;
> >>>>>>> 3) Bind/unbind guest page table;
> >>>>>>> 4) Invalidate IOMMU cache;
> >>>>>>> 5) Handle IOMMU page request/response (not in this series);
> >>>>>>> 1/3/4) is the minimal set for using IOMMU nested translation, with
> >>>>>>> the other two optional. For example, the guest may enable vSVA on
> >>>>>>> a device without using PASID. Or, it may bind its gIOVA page table
> >>>>>>> which doesn't require page fault support. Finally, all operations
> >>>>>>> can be applied to either physical device or subdevice.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Then we evaluated each uAPI whether generalizing it is a good
> >>>>>>> thing both in concept and regarding to complexity.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> First, unlike other uAPIs which are all backed by iommu_ops, PASID
> >>>>>>> allocation/free is through the IOASID sub-system.
> >>>>>> A question here, is IOASID expected to be the single management
> >>>>>> interface for PASID?
> >>>>> yes
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> (I'm asking since there're already vendor specific IDA based PASID
> >>>>>> allocator e.g amdgpu_pasid_alloc())
> >>>>> That comes before IOASID core was introduced. I think it should be
> >>>>> changed to use the new generic interface. Jacob/Jean can better
> >>>>> comment if other reason exists for this exception.
> >>>> If there's no exception it should be fixed.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> From this angle
> >>>>>>> we feel generalizing PASID management does make some sense.
> >>>>>>> First, PASID is just a number and not related to any device before
> >>>>>>> it's bound to a page table and IOMMU domain. Second, PASID is a
> >>>>>>> global resource (at least on Intel VT-d),
> >>>>>> I think we need a definition of "global" here. It looks to me for
> >>>>>> vt-d the PASID table is per device.
> >>>>> PASID table is per device, thus VT-d could support per-device PASIDs
> >>>>> in concept.
> >>>> I think that's the requirement of PCIE spec which said PASID + RID
> >>>> identifies the process address space ID.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> However on Intel platform we require PASIDs to be managed in
> >>>>> system-wide (cross host and guest) when combining vSVA, SIOV, SR-IOV
> >>>>> and ENQCMD together.
> >>>> Any reason for such requirement? (I'm not familiar with ENQCMD, but
> >>>> my understanding is that vSVA, SIOV or SR-IOV doesn't have the
> >>>> requirement for system-wide PASID).
> >>> ENQCMD is a new instruction to allow multiple processes submitting
> >>> workload to one shared workqueue. Each process has an unique PASID
> >>> saved in a MSR, which is included in the ENQCMD payload to indicate
> >>> the address space when the CPU sends to the device. As one process
> >>> might issue ENQCMD to multiple devices, OS-wide PASID allocation is
> >>> required both in host and guest side.
> >>>
> >>> When executing ENQCMD in the guest to a SIOV device, the guest
> >>> programmed value in the PASID_MSR must be translated to a host PASID
> >>> value for proper function/isolation as PASID represents the address
> >>> space. The translation is done through a new VMCS PASID translation
> >>> structure (per-VM, and 1:1 mapping). From this angle the host PASIDs
> >>> must be allocated 'globally' cross all assigned devices otherwise it
> >>> may lead to 1:N mapping when a guest process issues ENQCMD to multiple
> >>> assigned devices/subdevices.
> >>>
> >>> There will be a KVM forum session for this topic btw.
> >>
> >> Thanks for the background. Now I see the restrict comes from ENQCMD.
> >>
> >>
> >>>>> Thus the host creates only one 'global' PASID namespace but do use
> >>>>> per-device PASID table to assure isolation between devices on Intel
> >>>>> platforms. But ARM does it differently as Jean explained.
> >>>>> They have a global namespace for host processes on all host-owned
> >>>>> devices (same as Intel), but then per-device namespace when a device
> >>>>> (and its PASID table) is assigned to userspace.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Another question, is this possible to have two DMAR hardware
> >>>>>> unit(at least I can see two even in my laptop). In this case, is
> >>>>>> PASID still a global resource?
> >>>>> yes
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> while having separate VFIO/
> >>>>>>> VDPA allocation interfaces may easily cause confusion in
> >>>>>>> userspace, e.g. which interface to be used if both VFIO/VDPA devices
> exist.
> >>>>>>> Moreover, an unified interface allows centralized control over how
> >>>>>>> many PASIDs are allowed per process.
> >>>>>> Yes.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> One unclear part with this generalization is about the permission.
> >>>>>>> Do we open this interface to any process or only to those which
> >>>>>>> have assigned devices? If the latter, what would be the mechanism
> >>>>>>> to coordinate between this new interface and specific passthrough
> >>>>>>> frameworks?
> >>>>>> I'm not sure, but if you just want a permission, you probably can
> >>>>>> introduce new capability (CAP_XXX) for this.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> A more tricky case, vSVA support on ARM (Eric/Jean please
> >>>>>>> correct me) plans to do per-device PASID namespace which is built
> >>>>>>> on a bind_pasid_table iommu callback to allow guest fully manage
> >>>>>>> its PASIDs on a given passthrough device.
> >>>>>> I see, so I think the answer is to prepare for the namespace
> >>>>>> support from the start. (btw, I don't see how namespace is handled
> >>>>>> in current IOASID module?)
> >>>>> The PASID table is based on GPA when nested translation is enabled
> >>>>> on ARM SMMU. This design implies that the guest manages PASID table
> >>>>> thus PASIDs instead of going through host-side API on assigned
> >>>>> device. From this angle we don't need explicit namespace in the host
> >>>>> API. Just need a way to control how many PASIDs a process is allowed
> >>>>> to allocate in the global namespace. btw IOASID module already has
> >>>>> 'set' concept per-process and PASIDs are managed per-set. Then the
> >>>>> quota control can be easily introduced in the 'set' level.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'm not sure
> >>>>>>> how such requirement can be unified w/o involving passthrough
> >>>>>>> frameworks, or whether ARM could also switch to global PASID
> >>>>>>> style...
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Second, IOMMU nested translation is a per IOMMU domain capability.
> >>>>>>> Since IOMMU domains are managed by VFIO/VDPA
> >>>>>>> (alloc/free domain, attach/detach device, set/get domain
> >>>>>>> attribute, etc.), reporting/enabling the nesting capability is an
> >>>>>>> natural extension to the domain uAPI of existing passthrough
> frameworks.
> >>>>>>> Actually, VFIO already includes a nesting enable interface even
> >>>>>>> before this series. So it doesn't make sense to generalize this
> >>>>>>> uAPI out.
> >>>>>> So my understanding is that VFIO already:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 1) use multiple fds
> >>>>>> 2) separate IOMMU ops to a dedicated container fd (type1 iommu)
> >>>>>> 3) provides API to associated devices/group with a container
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> And all the proposal in this series is to reuse the container fd.
> >>>>>> It should be possible to replace e.g type1 IOMMU with a unified module.
> >>>>> yes, this is the alternative option that I raised in the last paragraph.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> Then the tricky part comes with the remaining operations (3/4/5),
> >>>>>>> which are all backed by iommu_ops thus effective only within an
> >>>>>>> IOMMU domain. To generalize them, the first thing is to find a way
> >>>>>>> to associate the sva_FD (opened through generic /dev/sva) with an
> >>>>>>> IOMMU domain that is created by VFIO/VDPA. The second thing is to
> >>>>>>> replicate {domain<->device/subdevice} association in /dev/sva path
> >>>>>>> because some operations (e.g. page fault) is triggered/handled per
> >>>>>>> device/subdevice.
> >>>>>> Is there any reason that the #PF can not be handled via SVA fd?
> >>>>> using per-device FDs or multiplexing all fault info through one
> >>>>> sva_FD is just an implementation choice. The key is to mark faults
> >>>>> per device/ subdevice thus anyway requires a userspace-visible
> >>>>> handle/tag to represent device/subdevice and the domain/device
> >>>>> association must be constructed in this new path.
> >>>> I don't get why it requires a userspace-visible handle/tag. The
> >>>> binding between SVA fd and device fd could be done either explicitly
> >>>> or implicitly. So userspace know which (sub)device that this SVA fd is
> >>>> for.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> Therefore, /dev/sva must provide both per- domain and
> >>>>>>> per-device uAPIs similar to what VFIO/VDPA already does. Moreover,
> >>>>>>> mapping page fault to subdevice requires pre- registering
> >>>>>>> subdevice fault data to IOMMU layer when binding guest page table,
> >>>>>>> while such fault data can be only retrieved from parent driver
> >>>>>>> through VFIO/VDPA.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> However, we failed to find a good way even at the 1st step about
> >>>>>>> domain association. The iommu domains are not exposed to the
> >>>>>>> userspace, and there is no 1:1 mapping between domain and device.
> >>>>>>> In VFIO, all devices within the same VFIO container share the
> >>>>>>> address space but they may be organized in multiple IOMMU domains
> >>>>>>> based on their bus type. How (should we let) the userspace know
> >>>>>>> the domain information and open an sva_FD for each domain is the
> >>>>>>> main problem here.
> >>>>>> The SVA fd is not necessarily opened by userspace. It could be get
> >>>>>> through subsystem specific uAPIs.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> E.g for vDPA if a vDPA device contains several vSVA-capable
> >>>>>> domains, we
> >>>> can:
> >>>>>> 1) introduce uAPI for userspace to know the number of vSVA-capable
> >>>>>> domain
> >>>>>> 2) introduce e.g VDPA_GET_SVA_FD to get the fd for each
> >>>>>> vSVA-capable domain
> >>>>> and also new interface to notify userspace when a domain disappears
> >>>>> or a device is detached?
> >>>> You need to deal with this case even in VFIO, isn't it?
> >>> No. VFIO doesn't expose domain knowledge to userspace.
> >>
> >> Neither did the above API I think.
> >>
> >>
> >>>>> Finally looks we are creating a completely set of new subsystem
> >>>>> specific uAPIs just for generalizing another set of subsystem
> >>>>> specific uAPIs. Remember after separating PASID mgmt.
> >>>>> out then most of remaining vSVA uAPIs are simpler wrapper of IOMMU
> >>>>> API. Replicating them is much easier logic than developing a new
> >>>>> glue mechanism in each subsystem.
> >>>> As discussed, the point is more than just simple generalizing. It's
> >>>> about the limitation of current uAPI. So I have the following questions:
> >>>>
> >>>> Do we want a single PASID to be used by more than one devices?
> >>> Yes.
> >>>
> >>>> If yes, do we want those devices to share I/O page tables?
> >>> Yes.
> >>>
> >>>> If yes, which uAPI is used to program the shared I/O page tables?
> >>>>
> >>> Page table binding needs to be done per-device, so the userspace will
> >>> use VFIO uAPI for VFIO device and vDPA uAPI for vDPA device.
> >>
> >> Any design considerations for this, I think it should be done per PASID
> >> instead
> >> (consider PASID is a global resource)?
> > per device and per PASID. you may have a look from the below arch. PASID
> > table is per device, the binding of page table are set to PASID table
> > entry.
> >
> > "
> > In VT-d implementation, PASID table is per device and maintained in the
> > host.
> > Guest PASID table is shadowed in VMM where virtual IOMMU is emulated.
> >
> > .-------------. .---------------------------.
> > | vIOMMU | | Guest process CR3, FL only|
> > | | '---------------------------'
> > .----------------/
> > | PASID Entry |--- PASID cache flush -
> > '-------------' |
> > | | V
> > | | CR3 in GPA
> > '-------------'
> > Guest
> > ------| Shadow |--------------------------|--------
> > v v v
> > Host
> > .-------------. .----------------------.
> > | pIOMMU | | Bind FL for GVA-GPA |
> > | | '----------------------'
> > .----------------/ |
> > | PASID Entry | V (Nested xlate)
> > '----------------\.------------------------------.
> > | | |SL for GPA-HPA, default domain|
> > | | '------------------------------'
> > '-------------'
> > Where:
> > - FL = First level/stage one page tables
> > - SL = Second level/stage two page tables
> > "
> > copied from https://lwn.net/Articles/807506/
>
>
> Yes, but since PASID is a global identifier now, I think kernel should
> track the a device list per PASID?
We have such track. It's done in iommu driver. You can refer to the
struct intel_svm. PASID is a global identifier, but it doesn’t affect that
the PASID table is per-device.
> So for such binding, PASID should be
> sufficient for uAPI.
not quite get it. PASID may be bound to multiple devices, how do
you figure out the target device if you don’t provide such info.
>
>
> >
> >>> The binding request is initiated by the virtual IOMMU, when capturing
> >>> guest attempt of binding page table to a virtual PASID entry for a
> >>> given device.
> >>
> >> And for L2 page table programming, if PASID is use by both e.g VFIO and
> >> vDPA, user need to choose one of uAPI to build l2 mappings?
> > for L2 page table mappings, it's done by VFIO MAP/UNMAP. for vdpa, I guess
> > it is tlb flush. so you are right. Keeping L1/L2 page table management in
> > a single uAPI set is also a reason for my current series which extends VFIO
> > for L1 management.
>
>
> I'm afraid that would introduce confusing to userspace. E.g:
>
> 1) when having only vDPA device, it uses vDPA uAPI to do l2 management
> 2) when vDPA shares PASID with VFIO, it will use VFIO uAPI to do the l2
> management?
I think vDPA will still use its own l2 for the l2 mappings. not sure why you
need vDPA use VFIO's l2 management. I don't think it is the case.
Regards,
Yi Liu
> Thanks
>
>
> >
> > Regards,
> > Yi Liu
> >
> >> Thanks
> >>
> >>
> >>> Thanks
> >>> Kevin
> >>>
> >>>>>>> In the end we just realized that doing such generalization doesn't
> >>>>>>> really lead to a clear design and instead requires tight coordination
> >>>>>>> between /dev/sva and VFIO/VDPA for almost every new uAPI
> >>>>>>> (especially about synchronization when the domain/device
> >>>>>>> association is changed or when the device/subdevice is being reset/
> >>>>>>> drained). Finally it may become a usability burden to the userspace
> >>>>>>> on proper use of the two interfaces on the assigned device.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Based on above analysis we feel that just generalizing PASID mgmt.
> >>>>>>> might be a good thing to look at while the remaining operations are
> >>>>>>> better being VFIO/VDPA specific uAPIs. anyway in concept those are
> >>>>>>> just a subset of the page table management capabilities that an
> >>>>>>> IOMMU domain affords. Since all other aspects of the IOMMU domain
> >>>>>>> is managed by VFIO/VDPA already, continuing this path for new nesting
> >>>>>>> capability sounds natural. There is another option by generalizing the
> >>>>>>> entire IOMMU domain management (sort of the entire vfio_iommu_
> >>>>>>> type1), but it's unclear whether such intrusive change is worthwhile
> >>>>>>> (especially when VFIO/VDPA already goes different route even in legacy
> >>>>>>> mapping uAPI: map/unmap vs. IOTLB).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thoughts?
> >>>>>> I'm ok with starting with a unified PASID management and consider the
> >>>>>> unified vSVA/vIOMMU uAPI later.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> Glad to see that we have consensus here. :)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks
> >>>>> Kevin
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