On Aug 18, 7:58 pm, Curt Kaffer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Aug 17, 5:26 pm, RobG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > On Aug 15, 11:59 am, Curt Kaffer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > > I was thinking: now that we have touch event support in javascript, we
> > > should be able to emulate scrolling for divs that currently only allow
> > > two finger scrolls. This would allow us to have fixed headers and tool
> > > bars while keeping the scrolling interface familiar for users.
>
> > If a user is using an iPhone, then the familiar interface is to use
> > two finger scrolling.
>
> I know of no native iPhone applications that use two finger scrolling.
Do you know of any native apps that have scrolling areas inside a
scrollable page? If so, how do they implement scrolling?
> If you haven't noticed, most people writing web apps for the iPhone
> are trying to make them look and feel like native apps.
Just because "most people" are doing something doesn't make it a good
idea. I'm more focused on web apps that work in all browsers, not
just one in particular.
> Clearly having
> a native looking app that requires a two finger scroll is the opposite
> of providing a familiar interface.
When compared to a web application (which is what we're talking about)
it is the familiar interface. And if you can answer the question
above, it might be for native apps too.
> > I must admit it took a while to discover the two-finger trick (a day
> > or two), and for the sites that I've tried it on it doesn't work very
> > well, but I don't see that javascript offers a useable solution.
> > There have been a few posts here trying to emulate a traditional
> > interface in Mobile Safari, but I think they're missing the point.
>
> You admit it is a "trick" that is not intuitive and takes days to
> catch on to, but you think it is a familiar iphone interface element
> that users are used to and expect?
Once they learn it, yes. It took me longer to find the swipe to
delete e-mails without reading them, but I'm not going to ask for
something different.
How about users who use Mozilla mouse gestures, they're used to a
horizontal swipe navigating to the next or previous page. What is
familiar for them?
> That makes zero sense to me. I'm
> not sure what you mean by "traditional interface" but you are missing
> the point of this discussion completely.
Not at all. I'm trying to say I don't think it's a good idea to try
and make a browser application behave differently from a browser
application. Users understand that browser applications are different
to desktop applications, don't sell them short.
> The idea here is to make
> mobile apps look and feel as much like native apps as possible. Most
> native apps have static elements on the screen and allow single finger
> scrolling.
How many have nested scrollable areas within the application that
scroll for single finger swipe, yet pan when swiped outside the area?
> This would be nice for us to have and this solution may
> bring it to us. I'm sure Apple will eventually address it since the
> obviously see the value in providing tools to build native-like apps
> delivered via the web (otherwise we wouldn't have gesture support,
> dashboard sample apps wouldn't look like native ones, and they
> wouldn't be working on full screen support)
If they thought full-screen support was a good idea, why wasn't it in
version 1? It may be an unpopular view here, but I think full-screen
for web applications are a bad idea. If you want a native
application, write a native application.
> > Apple designed the Mobile Safari interface to be useable on a small
> > device. Converting that interface back to a traditional browser
> > interface that expects a large screen and mouse doesn't make sense. I
> > think a better strategy is to work with the current paradigm rather
> > than trying to make it something it isn't.
>
> I agree, but have no idea why you are brining traditional browsers,
> large screens or mice into this discussion.
Because that is where the web has been for the last decade or so and
it's where the majority of Mobile Safari users come from too.
Desktop applications have been copying web applications for years, it
highlights that the momentum is to make native applications like web
apps, not the other way around.
> I think it might be better
> to take these points to another thread so this stays on-topic.
The concept of "off topic" refers to the news group, not the thread.
> > For example, code has been posted here that adds drag capability using
> > a single finger, but the cost has been confusion about when the
> > browser will pan and when things till drag (or be thrown). A better
> > approach might be better to use tap+drag rather than just drag, that
> > way users know when things will pan or (possibly) drag.
>
> Agree about dragging support, glad to know that people are discussing
> it and posting about it.
>
>
>
> > Similarly for scrolling divs with scroll bars - consider designing the
> > interface without scrolling divs. If you must use them, make them big
> > enough that two finger scrolling works. Device-native actions should
> > always be much smoother than anything done with script in a browser.
>
> I again am not sure what this paragraph is trying to accomplish. The
> ideas that I have involve having a static header, lower tab bar or
> other element, with content in the center.
The solution here seems to be support for CSS position: fixed. I
haven't tried it but there are a number of posts about version 1.0 not
supporting it. There's a link below, it doesn't seem to work in
version 2.0.1:
<URL: http://files.iconfactory.net/craig/bugs/iphone/page_test.html >
You may have more luck putting pressure on Apple to support CSS 2
rather than full-screen, which they are reluctant to do even with
desktop applications.
It's not so long ago that MS introduced the ability in IE to stop
script from removing toolbars and the status bar as a security
precaution, Mozilla also allows the user to stop scripts from re-
sizing or moving windows. So there is a bit of history that may hold
back full-screen for web applications in the near future.
> The fact that they may be
> scrolling divs should the totally hidden to the user, which is why I
> am advocating single finger scrolling.
I think I understand your motivation, I'm just saying that there are
likely other (better to some) solutions.
--
Rob
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