Tony and Tim, I agree with Tim about the flow. But I strongly support Margarets idea to limit them today to not be part of domain where global addresses exist as Margaret has clearly articulated. Support for that is not a minority and not rehash but putting some controls on an architectural part of IPv6 that is not understood, widely implemented, or deployed as product with express warranty that it can be used in production networks.
So keep it in the architecture and lets put a control on it right now and move on. I am personally not going to participate any further I have nothing else to say. P.S. Tim I emphatically do not agree with your views on 1918 and I was here as you when it was developed. But I see no point in kicking that dead horse either. We simply do not agree. It is moot point though I do agree. P.S. Margaret if we can get folks to do this correct engineering change order I will help with the draft if you require that. But for now I am DELETING all this mail on killing SLs entirely it will not happen. Though they should die and all should use globals the next best thing is to put controls on this mess until we understand how to do it. /jim [In matters of style, swim with the currents....in matters of principle, stand like a rock. - Thomas Jefferson] > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Hain [mailto:alh-ietf@;tndh.net] > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 4:01 PM > To: 'Tim Hartrick'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: Limiting the Use of Site-Local > > > Thank you! > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:owner-ipng@;sunroof.eng.sun.com] On Behalf Of Tim Hartrick > > Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 4:41 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: Limiting the Use of Site-Local > > > > > > > > > > All, > > > > I generally agree with all the points that Richard Draves has > > made. I am not as sanguine about the ease of implementation > > in the network stack but there is nothing in the details > > which is unimaginably difficult. We very much need to move > > on. By my count this is the forth or fifth time this topic > > has been debated and redebated. Each time the result has > > been the same. If every decision taken by this working group > > can be opened repeatedly by a noisy minority then forward > > progress of any sort will not be possible. Consensus does > > not require unanimity. No matter how noisy and persistent > > the minority happens to be, it is possible to move on. > > > > There are a couple of other points I would like to make. > > > > Some folks seem to be operating under a misconception about > > RFC 1918. RFC 1918 was a response to the rampant use of > > arbitrary IPv4 prefixes as private address space. The use of > > private address space was not a response to the publishing of > > RFC 1918. Network administrators will use "private" IPv6 > > address space whether we excise all mention of site-local > > addresses from the specifications or not. The network > > administrators that use private address space may be stupid, > > misinformed or have any number of socially unacceptable > > habits but they still run their networks and will run their > > networks the way they see fit. Removing site-local addresses > > from the architecture or attempting to restrict their use in > > a way that is equivalent to removing them is an exercise in > > futility absent better alternatives to site-local addresses. > > > > The burden on those that want to remove site-local addresses > > is to provide network administrators with an alternative > > which meets their needs but doesn't possess the negative > > aspects of site-local addresses that are being railed > > against. The requirements that network adminstrators would > > place on these addresses would probably be that there is no > > registration required and that the addresses are not globally > > routable. If such a proposal has been made and it has made > > it through last call of this working group, I must have > > missed it. Contrary to what has been said by some in the > > anti-site-local camp, the burden should be on them to come up > > with alternatives to site-local addresses. Until those > > alternatives have been thoroughly vetted by this working > > group the previous consensus should hold. > > > > Counter to what one might believe from reading my comments > > above, I don't like the architectural mess that has occured > > as a consequence of the use private addresses in IPv4. The > > difference between me and the anti-site- local camp is that I > > don't anticipate that network administrators will stop using > > private address (IPv6 or IPv4) unless they are provided with > > good reasons not to use them. That means solving > > renumbering, solving address shortage, artificial or > > otherwise, providing the an alternative "private" address > > scheme of the sort cited above and providing the great IPv6 > > applications which their customers want but that break in the > > presence of site-local addresses. If these things are done, > > it won't be necessary to add a bunch of MUST NOTs into the > > verbiage in various specifications. Site-local addresses and > > all the associated problems will fall into the dustbin of > > obsolescence. Absent these things, all the MUST NOTs in the > > world won't prevent the use of site-local addresses or some > > other form of IPv6 "private" address. > > > > Network administrators don't read RFCs for the MUST NOTs. > > They read them for the solutions they provide. If the MUST > > NOTs get in the way of the solution then they get ignored. > > > > > > Tim Hartrick > > Mentat Inc. > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > > Direct all administrative requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --------------------------------------------------------------------
