Robert Elz wrote:
> 
>     Date:        Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:49:35 +0200
>     From:        Brian E Carpenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>     Message-ID:  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
>   | If one could go and get a prefix under 2000::/3 today that was not tied
>   | to an ISP, that would be just fine.
> 
> So, you mean there's a need to have address stability inside the VPN?

Yes, but more than that, inside a shifting population of company networks
that are constantly joining and leaving virtual organizations. You can 
imagine the gymnastics of this unless there is a reasonably high
probability that there will be no collision between prefixes.

> 
> That's fine - but I'd like to see that made clear whenever this issue
> is raised.  I haven't had anything to do with large VPNs, and with
> that lack of experience, I can't see any particular reason why address
> stability is any more required there than the internet at large.
> That is, I always thought a VPN was more about access control, rather
> than anything else.

Traditionally, yes, but traditionally we haven't viewed distributed 
computing as a resource purchased on demand. This is changing, and the
work-arounds for Net 10 are becoming onerous.

> 
>   | I see is a lightweight way to get a PI prefix that isn't ambiguous.
> 
> For stability, you'd want a prefix that doesn't conflict with any of
> the prefixes used by the members of the VPN.   For that, whoever is
> primarily responsible (someone must be doing access control policy)
> can just collect all prefixes in use (ignoring normal global ones as
> the first few bits will serve to eliminate those) and generate a new
> number that is different than everything connected (the list of
> "connected" can include everyone who may someday potentially be
> permitted to be a part).   Once allocated the number can be advertised
> (as in, on a web page) and anyone who ever feels they might like to
> ever become part of that VPN could avoid it.
> 
> There's no need for a registry for this.

That doesn't solve the N**2 problem where any customer may want
to join any VPN at any time. We don't want everybody to start numbering
at 1. 
 
> Of course, Benny's suggestion should also work for this - anyone who
> wants runs a registry, most likely with some particular target audience
> in mind.   One of those would perhaps be "anyone involved in the auto
> industry in any way", another perhaps "airlines" - then after inventing
> your own prefix, you go register it with whatever registries seem like
> they may keep your number unique, and if there's a conflict in any,
> start again.  So a tyre maker might register with both an auto and an
> airlines registry, whereas a maker of car radios probably only (or those)
> the auto registry (but perhaps also an electronics registry).

That's a lot of complexity compared with either a generic pseudo-random
algorithm or a global registry. (I can't see a logical objection
to multiple registries, if IANA gives them each a prefix, but I don't
see a benefit either.)

> 
> That way, it is very likely that anyone (who had bothered to register)
> in any likely field would have a number distinct from everyone else,
> without expecting or requiring me, at my house, to bother registering
> anything with anyone (as I personally don't want a VPN like this, and
> don't care who else is using the same non-routable numbers as I use).

But I don't believe that in the future world of computing as a
utility service, we can assume that customers and service providers
are neatly segmented into fields of application.

> Both methods avoid the "this is globally unique" fiction, and hence
> make it very unlikely that someone will later attempt to depend upon
> that (as in the "everyone we know has a number that is unique").

Well, somebody will depend on it whatever we write, but you have a point,
which is why I've always said that I'd settle for "probably unique".

   Brian
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