Hi Matt,

the whole idea of the draft is avoiding IP fragmentation for IKE when
it prevents IKE to work. What about DF bit - I don't see how setting it 
would help IKE to work.

Regards,
Valery.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Matt Mathis 
  To: Valery Smyslov 
  Cc: tsvwg ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; 
[email protected] ; [email protected] ; Joe 
Touch 
  Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 12:41 AM
  Subject: Re: [tsvwg] [IPsec] TSVDIR-ish 
reviewofdraft-ietf-ipsecme-ikev2-fragmentation-04


  I concur with Joe: once you have enough machinery work well with IPv6 
fragmentation semantics, you should use it for IPv4 too, and unconditionally 
set DF.   This probably applies to *all* protocols.


  IPv4 reassembly is hopelessly out of scale.  IP ID wrap times are likely to 
be sub second for any large CGN connecting to any large service.....  They 
might even be shorter than the queuing times.


  I suspect that if you re-review decade old papers on fragmentation, you will 
find some scale assumptions that are no longer correct.  In that time the 
Internet has moved at least another two orders of magnitude in packet rates.


  Thanks,
  --MM--
  The best way to predict the future is to create it.  - Alan Kay

  Privacy matters!  We know from recent events that people are using our 
services to speak in defiance of unjust governments.   We treat privacy and 
security as matters of life and death, because for some users, they are.



  On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 1:18 PM, Joe Touch <[email protected]> wrote:



    On 10/24/2013 10:45 PM, Valery Smyslov wrote:
    ...

        You're using existing IKE messages *and* existing timeouts to
        determine when there is a problem. A separate timer would be useful,
        if only to allow you to decouple fragment retransmission from IKE
        transaction retries.



      No, the timeouts are different. I should have made it more expplicit in
      the draft.


    That'd be useful.

    ...

      Always setting DF bit in this case will probably increase the delay
      before IKE SA is set up (as more probes will need to be done).


    Except that if you continue to allow IP fragmentation, you can't claim your 
solution is robust to IP fragment poisoning.


          Note, that this approach is in line with advices, given for IKE in the
          paper

          C. Kaufman, R. Perlman, and B. Sommerfeld, "DoS protection
                        for UDP-based protocols", ACM Conference on Computer and
                        Communications Security, October 2003.


        That paper doesn't consider IKE-level fragmentation, which you're
        introducing. I agree that DF=0 for IKE without IKE-level fragmentation.



      It does, in Section 3.3.


    Sorry - I missed that. But that section also gives good reasons why this is 
a bad idea in IKE too.

    Joe


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