Dan,

thank you for your comments.
My responses below.

>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> let me summarize the discussion we had about address selection,
>> and move on to the next-step.
>> 
>> The discussion was about a try-and-error based mechanism proposed
>> by Fred Baker, and the address selection design team's proposal,
>> which is based on policy distribution.
>> 
>> 
>> * Fred's proposal.
>> - A host tries each pair of src and dst addresses to establish
>> a connection in a short time period.
>> - A host can make use of ICMP error messages indicating that the
>> src address should be this, or the src address is simply wrong.
>> - A host can have cache for the reachability status, which stores
>> which src and dst pair should be used to reach a certain dst.
>> 
>> ** Pro
>> - A connection can be established as far as one working pair exists.
>> - Routing status can be reflected to address selection directly,
>>   which means no need for intermediate agent and information 
>> conversion.
> 
> Missing a Pro that I consider significant:
> 
>  - Users will no longer experience multi-second connection delays due
>    to IPv6's address selection.  This means more users will 
>    leave IPv6 enabled.

not due to IPv6's address selection, but due to IPv6 connection
failure, aren't they ?

>> ** Con
>> - Impact for host protocol stack implementation.
>>  - Not a small change for the existing protocol stack and possibly
>>    applications.
> 
> It's really the applications that have to change so that they
> are more aggressively going through the getaddrinfo()-sorted 
> addresses to get a connection established.
> 
>> - We do not have established caching algorithm.
> 
> Not a problem caused by, or limited to, Fred's proposal.  Ignoring Fred's
> proposal for a second, RFC3484 address selection policies could be wrong (as
> we all know) and perhaps they should be able to learn/notice failures.

This is what I meant by the combination with Fred's proposal and
policy distribution.

Of course, it is beneficial to have this combination, but
such caches are not essential for policy distribution way.

>>  - Caching does good for static environment, and can harm for
>>    dynamically changing environment.
>>  - Network outage invokes cache reconstruction.
>> - Conformance with network policy, user experience.
>>  - A connection success does not mean conformance with site network
>>    policy, nor user experience, such as delay and bandwidth.
>>  - A site may have demands for preference control on address 
>> selection,
>>    such as IPv6 and IPv4 prioritization, in order to decrease network
>>    provisioning cost or to enhance user experience.
>> - Extra load for network and host.
>>  - routers have to send error messages.
>>  - servers are loaded by unused sessions.
>>  - extra CO2 emission ;)
> 
> That amount of extra traffic is tied to how caching and dynamic learning might
> be specified.  We could, if this is a sensitive issue, specify that things
> work as slowly as today (e.g., multi-second second connection timeouts before
> trying another IP address).  However, this creates a very poor user experience
> which today can only be resolved by the user disabling IPv6!  We do not want
> people disabling IPv6 to improve their user experience, but that is their only
> choice today.

There are so many reasons that makes users disable IPv6, such as
network unreachability, and application IPv6 related mal-functioning,...
This proposal does not solve all the cases.

> 
>> - Non-connected transport protocol complexity
>>  - Only applications know the connection success/failure if they use
>>    non-connected transport protocol like UDP.
> 
> Not a problem caused by, or limited to, Fred's proposal.

I cannot get why.

If the kernel caches address selection information, it
has to have connection success/failure information.

OTOH, if the appropriate policy is distributed, every
application/protocols can make use of it.

> 
>> - Spoils DNS round-robin based load balancing
>> - Network side(routers) cannot have effects on dst address selection.
>>  Only can have effects on src address selection.
>> 
>> 
>> * Design Team proposal.
>> - Network side distributes address selection policy to hosts.
>> 
>> ** Pro
>> - No impact on protocol stack, as far as it implements RFC 3484.
>> - At least, network policy can be implemented.
>>  This does not always lead to user experience enhancement.
>> - Network side can have effects on dst address selection also.
>> ** Con
>> - Hosts have to have functionalito for receiving and processing policy
>>  information.
>> - To make use of routing information, routing information has to be
>>  converted to address selection policy at intermediate nodes, and
>>  frequently updatable policy distribution mechanism is necessary,
>>  such as DHCP reconfigure.
>> 
>> 
>> * Considerations towards next-step
>> Design team proposal and Fred proposal have different applicability
>> domains, and one does not include the other. 
>> Fred proposal works more nicely if combined with Design 
>> team'smechanism.
>> Design team proposal can work by itself, but if combined with
>> Fred proposal, the applicability will be broader.
>> So, my suggestion is to have both mechanisms, while keeping 
>> one mechianism work without the other protocol.
> 
> Sounds alright.
> 
> -d

--
Arifumi Matsumoto
  Secure Communication Project
  NTT Information Sharing Platform Laboratories
  E-mail: [email protected]

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