Hi all,

surfing / caching proxies are good for blocking URLs or bad active content from 
websites, but I assume the MS ISA can't do that very well.

SSL-proxies are using man in the middle attacks for decrypting and monitoring 
external encrypted traffic, internal SSL-traffic can be done by host IDS or IDS 
Balancer.

The *content* of web servers cannot be monitored by IDS / IPS, that's why http 
reverse proxies are used, for example if a client tries to manipulate a price 
of a web shop or something.

In general there is no clear delimitation between this security technologies, 
the limits are fluently. IDS / IPS can cover some parts of the security done by 
surfing proxies and the http reverse proxies also can protect the web server 
application. So, it depends on.

Best regards,


Stephan Luedorf


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 8:44 PM
To: Dan Widger
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [ISSForum] Comparison of

Hi Dan, hi list,
answers inline:

Dan Widger wrote:

>             I'd like to know how technical networking security 
> professionals would compare MS ISA / proxy firewall, with the 
> capabilities of an IPS, versus a web application firewall solution 
> (Kavado / Sanctum / Teros / NetContinuum).  If we wanted to go a level 
> deeper, we could throw a MS ISA firewall with ISS Server sensor into 
> the mix.

I don't know MS ISA very well, but from what i've heard it's quite useful in 
smaller environments with medium security.

In high security environments i would strongly recommend a full blown proxy 
firewall AND an IDS or IPS.

ISA might be really good for several purposes, but i still think that vendors 
that specialize in proxy and firewall systems are better. 
Especially when they have a E3/high certificate (european certificate) or 
better you can be sure that the design and implementation are solid.

In addition i would think about some kernel-level protection software, - 
something that protects you from buffer overflows - on webservers and an IPS or 
IDS.
One drawback with IPS is that some false positives could cause denial of 
service, so you should be carefull with active responses like packet dropping 
and tcp-reset. Thorough tuning of policies is required.

>             At stake is a web application, operating in a secure 
> subnet / dmz.  If the objective to the "protect" all the servers in 
> the secure subnet, which device would be adequate, and which may be 
> inadequate for providing protection from internet attack against 
> servers in the "secure subnet"?
> 

All of the three options could be adequate. This depends on what level of 
security and availability you need. There are also products available that 
specialize in securing web (http) applications.
When using https you can terminate the ssl encryption an a proxy and put
  an IPS inline. Of course this is no end-to-end encryption but this way you 
have a chance to filter out malicious stuff before it hits your web servers.

> 
>             Does anyone have any quantitative experience comparing Web 
> Application Firewalls with IPS?
> 

Both are part of your security toolbox.


>             In my humble opinion, all of these solutions are variations
> of a proxy solution.  

No, an IPS is no proxy since a proxy is an application that does not 
simply forward packets as they ar, it provides a service to a client and 
requests that service from another server.
A proxy can load a website and serve that site to a client in another 
format or with limited content (e.g. stripping active x or scripts off 
the code).

An IPS does not alter contents. If a content is malicious it triggers an 
alert and (if configured) drops the whole packet or even the connection.

Of course those things tend to intermix in some products, e.g. with 
Check Point Application Intelligence.

> In my partially informed mind, the real question
> is what application or protocol (PAM) intelligence is applied on top of
> the proxy. 

An IPS can use simple patterns (signatures) and some more sophisticated 
heuristics. Protocol analysis is somewhat different if you look at ISS.
ISS uses signatures AND protocol analysis. With signatures you look for 
a pattern of a kown exploit. With protocol analysis you can detect when 
a known vulnerability is being exploited, like <IF protocol message xyz 
contains a string longer than 255 bytes THEN...>. This assumes that the 
analysis module kwows the structure of the protocol and even detects a 
protocol if it doesn't run on the default port.

The good thing with signatures is: You know exactly (by name) what 
attack hits your network.
The good thing with protocol analysis is: You can detect new (zero day) 
exploits.
Thus you might get two alerts for the same event: one for the 
signature-hit, one for the vulnerability-hit.

ISS folks: Did i get that right?
;)

> One resource made the analogy that IPS is "a mile wide, and
> a foot deep", and web app firewall is "a foot wide, and a mile deep".
> In this discussion, ISA is a general proxy with MS networking
> intelligence, and would therefore be shallower in terms of overall "deep
> packet inspection" capabilities.
> 

I cannot confirm that. This depends on the product implementation, not 
on the general approach.

HTH,
Detmar
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