I'm forwarding this to some of the lists already polled about becoming top-level.

I have recieved multiple requests for clarifications on why they would want to establish a PMC, and this is the best possible answer IMNSHO.


Roy T. Fielding wrote:
The problem(s) in Avalon are very serious, but there are strong project
leads in Avalon, so I am not sure what a project PMC would solve there.

PR/outward view would seem the major thing to me. Commons lacks a
governing group with the same name [PMC] as other projects and therefore
must be anarchy.

The concept of a PMC, and the reason that anyone having a vote on the
project code-base should be a member of the PMC, is to provide legal
protection to those people as individuals.  Not being on a PMC (as
defined by the bylaws) means that each and every decision made by those
committers is outside the scope of Apache's legal protection, which
in turn means that if a mistake is made (or some asshole lawyer just
feels like it), any suit against the committer actions (such as
infringement of some unknown patent) would have to be defended
by the committers on their own.  The ASF would be able to defend the
code itself, but not the people whose actions were outside the PMC.

That sucks, and I think the only reason the committers tolerate it
is because they don't understand the risks and have no awareness of
the bylaws.

Jakarta was created because the original Apache members needed an
incubator for Java projects that was independent of httpd.  I expected
the projects to form their own PMCs once they were self-governing.
The Jakarta brand name is irrelevant to the PMC issues -- the common
grouping of Apache Java projects under the jakarta.apache.org website
does not need to change at all, nor do the mailing lists need to go away.

What we do need is to wake up the Jakarta committers to the awareness
that they are working on Apache projects, under Apache guidelines, and
towards shared ownership in the Apache Software Foundation.  Phrasing
it as being forced out of Jakarta is why the projects refuse to form
their own PMCs.  If you asked people whether they prefer the legal
protection of the ASF or the management hierarchy of the Jakarta PMC,
I think you will find the committers will accept self-governance in
fact rather than the illusion provided by an external PMC.  If not,
then at least they will be making an informed decision.

....Roy

--
Nicola Ken Barozzi                   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
            - verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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