I'm not really sure if "sore wo kisete" is a good translation for "let me
wear that", and "miseta" for "made me look". The sense is surely very close,
but still it sounds kind of unnatural to me. But well, I'm not Japanese
native, so I can't say for sure. It might be an example of some kind of
informal usage I'm not very familiar with. I'll try to dig into the matter a
bit, asking about it my Japanese friend and checking my grammar book. As
soon as I get some results I'll report here.
Anyway, thank you for the comment Richard.
Maciek
On 04/09/07, Richard Wilcox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Misanthropos, this was a very good explanation. Let me just say that I
> think I can agree with your email and still say I think that the sentences
> mean almost the same thing, if that makes any sense.
>
> Saseru is the causative form. So misaseru could be translated "to cause to
> see", in addition to make/force/allow (these are all causative as well). To
> show also means "to cause to see." So in that sense, both sentences could be
> translated "Kyouko showed Yukiko a photo."
>
> Likewise, to dress also means "to cause to wear." So the second set of
> sentences could both be translated "Kyoko dressed Yukiko in kimono."
>
> So while agreeing with your email, I would say the difference between
> miseru and misaseru and kiseru and kisaseru is slight.
>
> I'm trying to think of some other examples here to illustrate any
> difference between miseru and misaseru -
> Let me see = misete or misasete. I think both are ok.
> Let me wear that = sore o kisete or sore o kisasete. Again, I think both
> are ok.
> Made me look = miseta or misaseta. I think both are ok, but you would
> typically use a modifier such as muriyari (muriyari misaseta) to make your
> meaning more clear if you were trying to say "made" or "forced".
> Made me wear that = sore o kiseta or sore o kisaseta. Same - I think you
> would use muriyari or something similar.
>
> These probably aren't good examples. Are there some better examples?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Misanthropos <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <misanthroposs%40gmail.com>>
> To: Japanese_Language@yahoogroups.com<Japanese_Language%40yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 19:44:21 +0200
> Subject: Re: [Japanese_Language] -semasu and -sasemasu
>
> Hello!
>
> I'll try to answer your first question, about the difference between
> the pairs of sentences. Well, as far as I know, they are far from
> being the same. Check out the translations of each of them I prepared:
>
> 1. Kyoko-san wa Yukikosan ni sashin o misemashita
>
> -> Kyoko showed Yukiko a photo.
>
> 2. Kyoko-san wa Yukikosan ni sashin o misasemashita
>
> -> Kyoko made/forced/allowed Yukiko (to) see the photo.
>
> 1. Kyokosan wa Yukikosan ni kimono o kisemashita.
>
> -> Kyoko dressed Yukiko in kimono.
>
> 2. Kyokosan wa Yukikosan ni kimono o kisasemashita.
>
> -> Kyoko made/allowed Yukiko (to) wear a kimono.
>
> As you see, the two sentences have very little in common. Actually,
> the verbs appearing in the first sentence of each pair, 'miseru' and
> 'kiseru', are not formed as mi(ru) + seru / ki(ru) + seru. It is very
> probable that they originate from "miru" and "kiru", but they've been
> used for so long that they acquired their own proper meaning. "Miseru"
> means "to show" (and not to make sb see sth) and "kiseru" means "to
> dress sb" (and not to make sb dress). The difference is slight, but
> still significant.
>
> On the other hand, "kisaseru" and "misaseru" are just verbs "miru" and
> "kiru" with added causative ending "-(sa)seru". Therefore, while you
> will surely find "miseru" and "kiseru" in any dictionary, you will
> probably not find neither "kisaseru" nor "misaseru".
>
> I hope this made things clearer.
>
> Maciek
>
> On 26/08/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <akusaya%40gmx.net> <[EMAIL
> PROTECTED]<akusaya%40gmx.net>>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi randhir_nag,
> >
> > Although I have been a long time member here but I seldom write here.
> > So, I am trying to write one.
> >
> > About the first question, I think it is the same, maybe the others can
> > explain better.
> >
> > Second question:
> > 1. Thank you very much for showing me the photo.
> > 2. Please don't make yukikosan sad.
> >
> > sabisigarasenai is made from sabisii (sad) + garaseru (make) + nai.
> >
> > garu is like naru but for adjectives (it happens without intervention).
> > garaseru is like suru (~ni suru) (to make).
> >
> > randhir_nag wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > What is the difference in the following sentences?
> > >
> > > 1.kyoko-san wa yukikosan ni sashin o misemashita
> > >
> > > 2kyoko-san wa yukikosan ni sashin o misasemashita
> > >
> > > Another similar example(just in case)
> > >
> > > 1.kyokosan wa yukikosan ni kimono o kisemashita
> > >
> > > 2.kyokosan wa yukikosan ni kimono o kisasemashita
> > >
> > > I understand that both of them are some form of passive sentences
> > > structures.Can someone explain in a bit more detail?
> > >
> > > Also,how would the following sentences translate into English:
> > >
> > > sashin o misete itadaite arigatou gozaimashita
> > > yukikosan o sabishigarasenaide(a variation of the sabishigatte form?)
> > > kudasai
> > >
> > > ariagtou gozaimasu
> > >
> > >
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> senaide(a variation of the sabishigatte form?)
> > > kudasai
> > >
> > > ariagtou gozaimasu
> > >
> > >
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
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