On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, Jim Hazen wrote:
> It seems that IBM has been pretty forthcoming with respect to support
> for opensource people. All of the source to Jikes, and I believe their
> JDK can be found on their website. IBM is very interested in using Java
> as a middleware to their databases, and building web enabled data
> warehouses. This is a perfect place for Java and they know it. That's
> why they've been working on their own JDK and compiler. They're
> treating Java and their JDK as a tool to help them really clean up in
> the database market. As such, they are being very open about their Java
> plans. It sounds like IBM is more than willing to put the time and
> money into developing their own version of the JDK because they're
> banking on the Linux community to code middleware and embrace their
> databases, if given the tools they need. And since Linux is almost
> synonimous with Open Source, they're also willing to Open Source their
> compilers and JDK, for two reasons. One, it is almost the defacto
> standard on which most Linux software is based, they want to keep Linux
> users happy. And two, they realize the potential of the Linux community
> to give valuable input and increase production of what will be some very
> valuable glue to them.
>
> Right now they're in a crunch to get JDK ported to their AIX machines
> (duh), and then a Linux port will be made. They're also working on
> including this JDK 1.2 port in their upcoming version of VisualAge for
> Linux.
>
> It's not clear how this would help Blackdown, whether it would be better
> for IBM to help Blackdown, or for Blackdown to help with the IBM linux
> port.
It does look like IBM will be releasing JDKs for Linux in the future but
they will not be Open Sourced. IBM licensed the JDK from Sun just like
Blackdown did, so they can not give out the source. The SCSL is not
open by any stretch of the imagination and it never will be. The only
way to get an open sourced JDK on linux is to convince Sun to use the
GPL or other open license (good luck), or to help with one of the
Open Source JVMs. There are three efforts that seem to have good backing
in the community (Kaffe, Japhar, and the cygnus Java project).
> It's pretty clear that IBM will release a JDK 1.2.2 port for
> Linux sooner or later. This will probably be an Open Source JDK which
> follows the Java 1.2.2 spec, it probably will not be a port of the Sun
> JDK.
>
> So we're left with a few questions. Should the existing devolopers of
> Java porting projects aid an IBM JDK? IBM having greater resources to
> throw at this, knowing that their work would go to speed up the
> production of a product owned by a corporation, that intends to use it
> as glue in one of their products. Or continue to spend time on a
> product that would be more or less owned by the Linux Java Community,
> but that could then be used just the same by IBM?
I see nothing that indicates IBM is doing a better job porting the JDK
than Blackdown. The IBM JDK requires glibc 2.1, which is a pain to say
the least (I have a RedHat 5.2 system). Blackdown has been providing
a quality JDK on linux for some time.
> I myself would favor the first option. I think I'd like to see a high
> quality Open product produced by a high power corporation. If Sun
> doesn't have the resources or interest in porting their JDK to Linux,
> then I'm all for IBM doing it. If this helps IBM in other markets,
> great, they deserve some payback. We've seen good examples of very big
> Open Source products run by the Linux community, Gnome, KDE, Gimp, and a
> zillion others are good examples. But I think that in this case
> everyone involved would be better off, and have a better product,
> faster, if some effort shifted from the Blackdown port, which in my
> opinion is just crawling along, to the IBM JDK.
The jikes compiler is "Open Source" (the new jikes license is a lot
better than the old one so I think it qualifies now), but the other
JDK stuff from IBM is not open in any way.
later
mo dejong
dejong at cs.umn.edu
> I think that as long as IBM keeps their current position and keeps
> things Open Source, that everyone, Linux community and IBM will be
> happy.
>
> -Jim
>
>
> > I'm just curious. Why is no one talking about the possible experience to be
> > gained from IBM? Because the legal problems are too great, therefore stalling
> > the relationship? Or is IBM unwilling to help (since it sounds they have much
> > more to loose in the relationship)? Or is that it's relative new and no one has
> > stepped up to the bar?
> >
> > It just feels like they are in the pocket and could lend a BIG helping hand (if
> > not code). It seems like they have made some strong repairs and their advise
> > could prevent some wasting of resources (which it appears java-linux/Blackdown
> > team is short on).
> >
> > Does anyone know about an official IBM contact person? (such as Calvin Austin
> > (As of last week I am covering as the Sun/Java/linux contact person so you can
> > email me if you need to)).
> >
> > Cheers Tod Matola....
> > OCLC
> > http://purl.oclc.org/net/tod
> >
> > Michael Sinz wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, 17 Aug 1999 11:09:51 -0400, Tod Matola wrote:
> > >
> > > >Here's a question, Has IBM (and/or Blackdown) interacted at all?
> > >
> > > Yes, but there are some big issues - IBM has their own GC/Heap management
> > > system and their own JIT (and it is a very good one) IBM also uses this
> > > code base on many other systems (not just Linux or Unix) and has some
> > > intelectual property issues with engineers in their core technology touching
> > > GPL or other open source code in the same field of technology as it could
> > > "infect" their core technology and cause them to loose it.
> > >
> > > Now, there is nothing wrong with them listening to what issues we
> > > ran into and what we did to work around/past/through them. And the
> > > same goes the other way around.
> > >
> > > BTW - This is all due to legal issues and I am not a lawyer so the exact
> > > representation of the problem is most likely more complex than what I
> > > just outlined.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Michael Sinz -- Director of Research & Development, NextBus Inc.
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