I'm not defending Microsoft, I don't use Windows, all I've been trying to is broadening the horizon a little bit and there ARE ideas from the dark side which we can make use of. I don't care about the Microsoft brand, how they screwed up in the past, what they service in their cafeteria - I care about programming languages since it's the primary tool I use everyday and wish this was a more shared sentiment than it is. Don't be a passionate Java head, don't be a passionate .NET head - be a passionate head!
While what i wrote does reflect the impressions I've picked up over the years listening to this podcast, I simply tried to add to the wit you yourself started. That it (especially notoriously) was taken, stretched and over-analyzed I should've foreseen I guess - it's not the first time. It has been mentioned by other than I, how an interview with a hybrid interest (say Ted Neward) or a crosscast with .NET radio could be beneficial for both parts - they are after all quite similar. That you are more outspoken and colorful than the posse does not change my impression of some 200+ podcasts. The posse is not likely to be insulted for they would've been so a long time ago, but if they are I apologize. For what it matters, things have actually gotten better in the podcasts themselves apart from the occasional "I hope it dies" comments, which is wonderful. Sorry Reinier for not matching your stereotypical view of Java developer. For a thought experiment, what sets apart Bush and Obama? The fact that Bush allies himself with back- padders while Obama pulls in his critics. /Casper On Dec 9, 5:52 pm, Reinier Zwitserloot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Dec 9, 2:03 pm, Casper Bang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > NB: All are notoriously anti-microsoft > > Do you live on planet earth? Ever turned on teh interwebs? > > "Notoriously anti-microsoft" people are rabid warmongers like ESR and > RMS. Or check any blog chattering about this > post:http://groups.google.com/group/capistrano/msg/f5213577eaeadc47?pli=1- > which are tons of them, most of them quite fiercely anti-microsoft. > > The posse aren't anti-microsoft. If I were them, I'd be very insulted > at the insinuation. > > As they've said a gazillion times: They don't use microsoft. They've > all seen it at one time and then they all switched to macs or linux. > Voluntarily. Not for ideologous reasons (heck no, how many apple users > have you seen that ideologically use apple? Other than the 'mac is > god' ideology, that is?), but because these guys like being > productive. Dick Wall is arguably the most anti-microsoft member of > the posse and he uses both linux and apple stuff, which hardly seems > like an ESR/RMS level koolaid drinking open source crusader. > > The only microsoft news they could cover is verbatim reading of one- > liner press releases. They do this all the time in the quick news > (verbatim one-liners, not covering microsoft products, which only > occurs rarely), but that's because this is the -java- posse. If > there's relevant microsoft centric news involving java, they usually > give it the verbatim one-liner. They don't discuss it, because they > don't have the stuff and aren't actively looking into it. They > wouldn't have anything to say. Do you contend that the posse can't be > an excellent podcast without them spending their own free time looking > into products that bore them to tears? That's quite a statement. The > posse is a free time activity; they look into things that gets them > excited. Nobody is under any obligation to get excited about microsoft > stuff. Microsoft will first have to make their stuff exciting, same as > the rest of us. > > I have an alternative theory: You are a notorious microsoft apologist. > The evidence (the posse's behaviour vs. your posts in this newsgroup) > make this obvious. > > A podcast about topic X should be headed by people that are fairly > passionate about topic X, because, otherwise, why bother? > > Don't forget that microsoft screwed java for years on their platform, > being a bastard by abusing their monopoly position. This isn't really > an idle perception: Governments the world over have handed microsoft > enormous fines because they've been charged with that as a crime. > Then, they copied java verbatim for C# 1.0. Hypocrites. Since C#'s > inception they've taken a different path, and in that sense I > absolutely agree with you that a java aficionado should keep an eye > out, if only to figure out what does not work so well, and what might > be worth adopting. > > Frankly, a generic passionate java head should start out with a mild > dislike of microsoft as the default because of that. The posse is > perhaps guilty of this, but so are the vast majority of (passionate) > java programmers. This isn't the fault of java developers. Microsoft > screwed up their brand name by being jackasses. That's their fault. > The world works because there's such a thing as reputation. Ask > Verizon and Accenture about why they changed their name. They'll be > the first to tell you that you can only go so far in screwing the > world over before your brand name is turned to poison. Microsoft so > far isn't really doing a very good job on fixing theirs. When they do, > I'm actually somewhat sure that they will eventually be seen in a > better light; geeks tend to be faster at adopting new stuff. > Similarly, I think apple is risking their brand by being such > shortsighted morons in regards to e.g. their iPhone App Store > mentality. You don't screw a programmer over after he's gone through > the trouble of developing and testing an entire app. That should > rightly be meted with a massive negative cost in the form of bad press > and worse reputation. > > Microsoft is merely seeing the rewards for turning programming into a > 'If you're not one of us, you're one of the enemy' mentality, which > they've done for almost 10 years. > > </rant> > > So, casper: No that you've seen an -actual- political, notoriously > anti microsoft missive, do you still contend that the posse is > notoriously anti-microsoft and political? > > > political beliefs gets to dominate whatever technical and engineering > > considerations there might actually be of interest to them and the, > > after all, somewhat related Java community they represent. Carl seems > > to be the least lenient on the issue while Joe seems to be the most. > > Dick is the skeptical facilitator while Tor has stopped listening a > > while ago, content with just hacking away on NetBeans. > > > On Dec 9, 11:07 am, Reinier Zwitserloot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > IDEs: > > > > Tor programs netbeans, so, guess what he uses? > > > > Dick Wall uses eclipse at work, but is trying to streamline > > > navigenics' build process and tooling so everyone can use what they > > > want. See ongoing maven whines :P > > > > Joe Nuxoll doesn't currently program much, but he's toying around with > > > scala, which he's probably doing in netbeans as that's the only IDE > > > with a halfway decent plugin for it. Possibly IDEA, but the way news > > > about IDEA's scala plugin is told (specifically: Without any detail > > > about how practical it is), I'm guessing they are just excited, not > > > actually using it. > > > > Carl Quinn? I don't know. I'm 95% certain that at google you can pick > > > and choose your IDE, and even iDEA is acceptable. I'm fairly sure he > > > doesn't use eclipse though, so that's netbeans or IDEA. > > > > Computers: > > > > Tor uses a mac, or maybe a solaris box at sun. I believe he has an > > > iPhone. > > > > Dick Wall uses linux primarily but uses a mac on the road. Dick leans > > > Android. > > > > Joe uses a mac (Duh! ex-apple, and still-apple-apologist). Joe also > > > uses an iPhone but is excited about Android. > > > > Carl uses a mac. I don't recall his phone OS. > > > > NB: Nobody in the posse uses windows even on a part-time basis. This > > > is stated every 4th episode or so when 'you guys never discuss C# or > > > windows centric tooling' comes up. They don't discuss it because they > > > don't like talking out their arse. It's either that or install windows > > > and spend free time on it, which, well, really now. What would possess > > > them to do that? > > > > NB2: The posse's origins lie in them all working on I believe it was > > > Borland JBuilder, or, no, that was just a subset of posse. They all > > > worked on the web creator thingie that was integrated into netbeans > > > after they moved on to other projects. Hence the netbeans bent of the > > > posse. Tor still works on netbeans.Also, Netbeans has more noteworthy > > > news of late (in my opinion), and Tor evangelizes his work as any > > > developer should. > > > > On Dec 8, 7:38 pm, larry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Hey Guys > > > > > I would like to hear on your show what each of you use for your own > > > > programming environment. PC vs Mac, which linux, solaris?, NetBeans or > > > > Eclipse? What plugins can’t you live without, findbugs, etc. What > > > > other tools is on your must have list for Architect, Design, and > > > > Coding, visio? > > > > > Thank you for the great podcasts. > > > > Larry --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
