Dick, Thanks very much for this. I'm glad to see that the discussion is continuing in a more professional tone and is focusing more on technical issues. Apologies again for my over-reaction.
Eric On Jun 27, 10:22 am, Dick Wall <[email protected]> wrote: > A bit of damage control here, and a personal announcement: > > First - thanks Neil - I know you are trying to keep the peace, but I > do want to point out that I did not say that we were being begged for > interviews, please re-read the posting for clarification. Gone are the > days when we had to do the begging, but I can honestly say no one has > ever begged us to come on the show, nor would I feel entirely > comfortable with that (someone that needy would sound the alarm > bells). No, these days we are merely in the happy position of being > taken seriously, and getting lots of simple offers and requests for > interviews. Nothing more. I say this partly because I would like you > to see how easy it is to misread or misquote something. > > Our interviewing style is a personal choice, it is in no way because > we are afraid of putting people off - I just see little point in > introducing conflict into a situation when "softly softly" seems to > work really well for us. As far as the Jigsaw interview goes, we hit > every point that I have heard leveled against Jigsaw, including the > use of OSGi to split up Harmony. I believe we ask the hard questions, > but I see no reason not to ask them politely - it was after all how I > was brought up. > > I would encourage you, as you say, to dig deeper yourselves, which > brings me to my main point of this post. > > Firstly, I want to make it clear that I am speaking entirely for > myself here. I have not talked to the rest of the posse yet, but when > I wake up at 4.30am with stuff swimming about my head it's time to > take action, so this is my pledge, for me, Tor, Joe and Carl can speak > for themselves. > > When the requests first started coming in for us to dig into the Java > modularity stuff, I resisted. My gut instinct was not to get involved > for a couple of reasons: > > 1. I am not really that interested in the space, sure, I want some of > the advantages, but I am largely uninterested in how we get there and > certainly don't have a lot of time or passion to invest in something I > care this little about. > > 2. It is clear that some people in this space want a fight, which is > fine, that's their prerogative. However, I suspected that the reason > our involvement was requested was to further that aim, to stir up the > space, in other words I suspected that we were being used to further > other people's aims. > > Despite that, we got enough requests that we got involved, against my > better judgment, and once again I am reassured that I can trust my gut > instinct, and disappointed that I did not do so. > > So, where have we arrived now? After giving both sides a voice, after > many hours of my own time invested in something I really just don't > care that much about, and after trying to explain at every opportunity > my own opinions, we seem to have ended up being used as a blunt > instrument for political points scoring. I don't believe the situation > has helped anyone, and I am irritated that I didn't follow my > instinct, which I will now do. > > From now on I recuse myself from anything involving OSGi, Jigsaw and > Java modularity in general, unless it constitutes straight news (which > we will always report), or something that is of particular technical > interest to me. Keep it simple - that's my motto. Since this whole > sorry affair has brought little but bad feelings all around I see > absolutely no point in continuing along with it. I personally am > seeing no benefit for me, and this is apparently getting way to > personal for something I just don't care about when we see the kind of > descriptions that have been on this thread. > > If the rest of the guys want to talk about the topic still - that's > cool, but personally I have lost both interest and motivation in the > whole sorry space, and I certainly don't want to see the Java Posse > continue to be janked around and used for political ends. > > Dick > > On Jun 27, 1:57 am, Neil Bartlett <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Dick, > > > As an OSGi supporter I also think Eric has gone a little far with this > > blog post. It's clear to me at least that the JavaPosse was never > > intended to be a "watch dog". You're just 4 guys podcasting about what > > interests you, and your popularity and success speaks for itself. If > > the "OSGi community" wants a podcast that satisfies our biases more > > than yours then we should just damn well start one. I'm not under any > > illusions that it would be able to catch up with you guys in > > popularity any time soon. > > > However if you're really being begged for interviews, then I think you > > can afford to be a _little_ tougher on the interviewees. I'm not > > talking about gotcha tactics or screwing people over, just asking them > > to back up what they say and digging a little deeper. You don't need > > to interview like Bill O'Reilly or even Jeremy Paxman, but an > > occasional streak of Krishnan Guru-Murthy wouldn't be so bad. > > > Cheers, > > Neil > > > On Jun 27, 12:13 am, Dick Wall <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Wow - what a report. I really couldn't let this one go by without some > > > comment. > > > > Some choice pieces from the article: > > > > "defend Jigsaw scathing, cynical, and even insulting comments about > > > OSGi folks" > > > > From everything (and I mean everything) I have observed so far, the > > > scathing comes primarily from the OSGi followers, and not the main > > > camp either, but a noisy group of people who seem to have injected > > > themselves into the discussion. I certainly didn't pick up anything > > > scathing in Mark or Alex's answers, nor in all fairness did I pick up > > > anything from Peter Kriens or B.J. Hargrave when we interviewed them. > > > As far as I can see, the key players in this game have been > > > professional throughout. Opinions not matching your own do not > > > constitute scathing cynicism, or insults, they are merely differing > > > opinions. > > > > "At first I figured the reason was that the Java Posse is not actually > > > a technical forum, but is popular for its entertainment value, > > > instead. But some of the other threads seemed to treat technical > > > topics seriously" > > > > You bet - I believe we have amassed a fantastic group of energetic > > > people who are passionate about all aspects of the Java language, > > > platform and community. Eric, I really believe you should reserve such > > > judgment until you have been a member of the forums a little longer > > > and joined in on some other threads that Jigsaw/OSGi. I would also > > > point out that your comments about the forums not being technical but > > > only for entertainment is a little insulting to the people here, Again > > > - it's regrettable if not everyone sees it your way, but really isn't > > > that just an opportunity to learn from others. > > > > "Finally it occurred to me that the Java Posse is just probably more > > > of a "lap dog" than a "watch dog"" > > > > Right, this is the line that prompted the response, and respond I > > > will. Firstly, you seem to be claiming insults, scathing and cynicism > > > from Jigsaw (and us, and the forums), but I believe we have the best > > > example of all three right here. I am an engineer with 20 years of > > > experience, I am nobody's lapdog, nor are Carl, Joe and Tor I can > > > assure you. In fact these are three of the finest professionals I have > > > ever had the pleasure to work with - why do you suppose I wanted to do > > > a podcast with them in the first place? > > > > I really hope you can back up your statement here. What is it based > > > on? We do not accept sponsorship (Atlassian beer-for-events > > > awesomeness aside - but that is the only thing and would anyone > > > serious begrudge our live audience members that)? I also would point > > > out that just a few weeks before the Jigsaw interview, we did a > > > similar interview with Peter and BJ for OSGi. Do you really believe > > > that it was not fair and balanced to let Mark and Alex respond to that > > > criticism (which, as I have mentioned, seemed professional and honest > > > from both sides). Also, if you really believe we influence what ~3000 > > > developers on this group think, I believe you have overestimated our > > > reach. The Java Posse Google group is a fantastic discussion forum, > > > and one of the things I am proudest of from the podcast, but I think > > > that most people here have made up their own mind on things, and if > > > you are finding resistance to your "one true way" perhaps that should > > > be significant. > > > > Thirdly, if you really believe we are "not biting the hand that feeds > > > us" to get the "scoop" on news or people to interview, I would hope > > > that common sense would indicate otherwise. Long gone are the days > > > were we needed to beg for interviews, these days (seriously) it is all > > > I can do to stay up to date with the requests (sorry folks, I do get > > > backed up on this stuff some times because my real job gets in the > > > way). I believe some of this has come from the fact that we do not > > > practice gotcha tactics, try and screw people over or put words in > > > their mouths. We remember who's interview it is and let them have > > > their say. > > > > I am really disappointed that you would come out of the gate swinging > > > like this. I believe it doesn't show your cause in a good light either > > > - such animosity towards people rarely makes friends. I hope you hang > > > around long enough to see the value in the community we have built > > > here, and maybe to work out that we are in fact nobody's lapdog. > > > > Cheers > > > > Dick > > > > On Jun 26, 2:24 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > >http://modualrit.blogspot.com/2009/06/jigsaw-posse.html --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. 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