On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 22:01, Ricky Clarkson <[email protected]>wrote:
> I think the attitude is more that you can do everything you need to in > the current language, so why would you want to switch? > Yea, probably so. Though this is pretty vague. It's no wonder opinions differ so widely: - "can do" -> yes, but how natural or awkward is it? - "everything" -> everything-everything, or mostly-everything, or everything-i-care-about-right-now? - "to switch" -> what's the cost in effort/time/energy of acquiring the new skills? - what other benefits might said new skills bring down the line? Think of it as an optimization problem. :-) VBA, is Turing complete, so I could just write everything as macros in Excel, but I choose not to. // Ben > > On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 6:08 PM, Kevin Wright <[email protected]> > wrote: > > None of this is intended to denigrate any of the languages mentioned, of > > course. And believe-it-or not I had no specific individuals in mind > either. > > But I am, and shall remain, convinced that computer science has learned a > > trick or two since BASIC, or COBOL, or any of the others were created. > Some > > of these advances are just too painful to retrofit to a language that > quite > > correctly places a high premium on backwards compatibility. > > The forces acting here are powerful, and impossible to reconcile. Which > > means that as a language matures, new concepts become ever harder to > adopt. > > Historically, such change has instead been managed by the creation of > new > > languages, for which backward compatibility is no longer an issue. > > I'll repeat... This is in no manner detrimental to earlier languages, > they > > form an essential foundation to those that came later. But is it truly > > possible to embrace e.g. Pascal in preference to its immediate > predecessor > > (Algol), which was in turn written to avoid some of the known flaws in > > Fortran - and yet simultaneously believe that Pascal is the pinnacle, > that > > past languages were mere coincidence, and that Pascal could never > possibly > > be improved upon? > > It seems a strangely contradictory attitude to take in a profession that > is > > otherwise making bold steps to embrace change through power of agile > > methodologies > > > > > > On 3 October 2010 12:54, Kevin Wright <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> Absolutely. All of my experience is that developers willing to step > >> outside of their box, and to learn new languages and ideas are better > for > >> it. > >> Not only does the learning experience expose you to more examples of > >> quality code, but you also end up with a larger "mental toolbox" of > >> approaches to learn from. I've already given JodaTime as an example of > >> this, google collections is another, you can find many more if you shop > >> around. > >> Nowadays, we're even starting to see some category theory trickle back > >> into > >> Java: > http://apocalisp.wordpress.com/2009/08/21/structural-pattern-matching-in-java/ > All > >> of this cross-fertilization is a Very Good Thing(tm). > >> BASIC has its share of dogmatic and obstinate followers, unwilling to > >> accept change. As does COBOL, Pascal, Fortran, C#, etc. And yes, Java > does > >> too. > >> Scala, F#, Haskell, Clojure... not so much. These languages all still > >> have very active communities, looking to explore the realms of what is > >> possible and definitely not set in their ways - a description that I > imagine > >> any good developer would like to have applied to themselves. > >> It's only natural, then, that a language actively seeking to push the > >> state of the art will also attract like-minded developers. But does > this > >> mean that it's therefore unsuitable for anyone else? Of course not! > But > >> there will always be some for whom their doctrine is a great comfort, > and > >> these people *will* find it distressing if they should ever have to move > to > >> a different language. > >> > >> > >> On 3 October 2010 01:53, Liam Knox <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> > >>> I agree though age of this exposure and the individuals mind set are > >>> paramount. Some people seem to be brain washed easily with other > ideas, > >>> Religion for example, and others have been able to refute them quite > easily > >>> based on alternative evidence regardless of the initial exposure time. > >>> There are other fundamental individual differences, for example life > time > >>> learners and those who seem to become very limited, very early. This > is not > >>> unique to technology by any means. I have seen both types of developer > and > >>> I personally can not attribute this purely to languages they initially > >>> learned. Indeed many of them were brought up on something more > structured > >>> such as C or Pascal or Modula II. However they appear to be equally > adapt > >>> in using any languages and building complete crap or great systems with > it. > >>> > >>> On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 8:48 AM, Kevin Wright <[email protected] > > > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Long-term lack of exposure to significant programming paradigms has > got > >>>> to impact your skills, how could it be otherwise? > >>>> I've witnessed the pain of others in transitioning from procedural to > >>>> object-oriented methodologies, it isn't pretty! > >>>> I've also seen OO abused when treated as the only paradigm in town. > >>>> It's the old story, "when all you have is a hammer..." > >>>> I highly recommend the fantastic "Execution in the Kingdom of Nouns" > >>>> article for more on the subject: > >>>> > >>>> > http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/03/execution-in-kingdom-of-nouns.html > >>>> Closer to home, it's impossible that anyone would create the > universally > >>>> hated Java Date/Time if they had first been exposed to functional > >>>> programming and the correct use of immutable objects (ideas that > JodaTime > >>>> clearly embraced) > >>>> > >>>> So yes, BASIC can harm your skills, at least if you become > >>>> institutionalised within the language. > >>>> But it's not really BASIC that's at fault here, it's the concept if > >>>> being locked into a particular (restricted) way of doing things, and > then > >>>> struggling to break free of the self-imposed prison that such an > approach > >>>> can create. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 3 October 2010 00:24, Liam Knox <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> I think its pretty irrelevant if you started on BASIC or any other > >>>>> language for that matter and how that has impacted your current > skills. > >>>>> Someone who feels they have been technically crippled permanently > from > >>>>> exposure to BASIC would likely be not very be technical anyway. > >>>>> > >>>>> On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 12:33 AM, Russel Winder <[email protected] > > > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Sat, 2010-10-02 at 07:36 -0700, Cédric Beust ♔ wrote: > >>>>>> [ . . . ] > >>>>>> > Basic is definitely not receiving enough credit, in my opinion. > >>>>>> > Actually, it's being unjustly vilified. Who was it again who said > >>>>>> > that > >>>>>> > anyone who started programming with Basic was irrecoverably > corrupt > >>>>>> > and would never become a good programmer? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Dijkstra, who is both the source of some great things that have > >>>>>> benefited programming and software development, and things that have > >>>>>> acted as barriers holding back software development for decades. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to > >>>>>> students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as > potential > >>>>>> programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of > >>>>>> regeneration." > >>>>>> > >>>>>> "I think of the company advertising 'Thought Processors' or > the > >>>>>> college pretending that learning BASIC suffices or at least > >>>>>> helps, whereas the teaching of BASIC should be rated as a > >>>>>> criminal offence: it mutilates the mind beyond recovery." > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I bet that a lot of people on this list started programming with > >>>>>> > Basic > >>>>>> > (myself included), and I think we turned out alright :-) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hummm... people who started with Basic and yet have become good > >>>>>> programmers in a number of languages must have great powers of > >>>>>> recovery > >>>>>> and regeneration. This must mean they are either vampires or trolls > >>>>>> ;-) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> Russel. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > ============================================================================= > >>>>>> Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: > >>>>>> sip:[email protected] <sip%[email protected]> > >>>>>> 41 Buckmaster Road m: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: > [email protected] > >>>>>> London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >>>>> Groups "The Java Posse" group. > >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>>>> [email protected]<javaposse%[email protected]> > . > >>>>> For more options, visit this group at > >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Kevin Wright > >>>> > >>>> mail / gtalk / msn : [email protected] > >>>> pulse / skype: kev.lee.wright > >>>> twitter: @thecoda > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >>>> Groups "The Java Posse" group. > >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>>> [email protected]<javaposse%[email protected]> > . > >>>> For more options, visit this group at > >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. > >>> > >>> -- > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >>> "The Java Posse" group. > >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>> [email protected]<javaposse%[email protected]> > . > >>> For more options, visit this group at > >>> http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Kevin Wright > >> > >> mail / gtalk / msn : [email protected] > >> pulse / skype: kev.lee.wright > >> twitter: @thecoda > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Kevin Wright > > > > mail / gtalk / msn : [email protected] > > pulse / skype: kev.lee.wright > > twitter: @thecoda > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "The Java Posse" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [email protected]<javaposse%[email protected]> > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "The Java Posse" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]<javaposse%[email protected]> > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. 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