And, of course, I forgot ADD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention-deficit_hyperactivity_disorder) which doesn't help student, as programming requires some kind of focus.
As some of the Java Posse seems to be suffering from it and already said how sometimes it could really prevent them to produce some work, it's quite easy to infer the very bad side effect it might have on students. On 5 October 2010 15:44, Romain Pelisse <[email protected]> wrote: > As I teach at my engineering school in France (those school are France > specific, but think of equivalent to a Master degree, or 5,6 years course) I > can also contribute to this topic, even if I think that some of the stuff > I'm going to say may be very specific to France. > On the other way around, most of what Ricky Clarkson wrote is also > consistent with my experience, so maybe, my stuff is not so much specific to > France. > 1. Prerequisite to computer science teaching : > This is most definitely France specific, but I do find that student are more > and more weak in term of analysis capacity and writing skills. Writing > skills might not be tight to programming at first glance, but if student > can't really write or express well their issue, especially using the proper > lexicon (which also part of the problem), you can't easily help them. Even > if you do, you use words that make no sense to them or that they map to > another word. > A good example of this, was a student which "programming rules" such as the > one controlled by PMD and Checkstyle, to "programming laws" - even in > English, those two expression aims at quite different things. > This "confusion" does not help at all when working on something as strict as > computer science. Students are more likely to get frustrated at computer > science if they do not already work with method... > 2. I blame Windows > This may be sound like a troll statement but it's not. I'm not actually > blaming Windows as an OS or the Redmond company, I'm blaming the UI itself. > Too many students believe that command line are history and just want to > "click" their way out of CS. UI wraps the command line, not the other way > around, sadly for them... > 3. Is computer science world changed that much ? > More to the point I don't think the computer world you grew in (I'm 30 years > old, I'm assuming most people on this list is somewhat older) was really > different that it justify to change the expectations, but I'm pretty sure > that at the same time it become more complex (more stuff to know, more > history) and students somehow end up being less prepared. > 4. Googling is not always helping > We all love google because we can use it to solve any kind of problem we ran > into (ex: issues with maven for instance :) ), however, we are more and less > qualified people (and as we follow the Java Posse we are probably also a > bunch of geeks), so when we find a solution to our issue, we are able to > decipher it and understand the underlying mechanisms that made the fix > worked. Students oftenly do the same but does not analyse whatever they cut > and paste. Hence, they are able to achieve much quickly, but not always to > actually understand everything they are using. > Overall, this is not such a big problem. Students are coming out of Unis > probably less ready to work than before, therefore companies must make a > somewhat larger effort to actually make them efficient, but it still begs > for improvement. > On 5 October 2010 14:15, Ricky Clarkson <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> 1. Lack of BASIC or equivalent pre-installed on PCs. Perhaps less and >> less important as we're increasingly online, but I think this still >> affects the current generation; you can expect most CS students to >> have done no programming beforehand, whereas I don't think that was >> true 12 years ago. Of course, this depends on the Uni's entry >> requirements. >> >> 2. A lot of Unis don't even teach any CS. My CS degree didn't >> mention 'lambda', 'type system', etc., and a compiler was a black box >> you got .class files out of, not something you wrote. >> >> 3. Most lecturers who teach people to program can't program. This >> isn't hyperbole, but my experience, both as a student and as a >> lecturer for a number of years. As a student I had some Java work >> marked down because the lecturer had not realised it was valid Java to >> have a try..catch within a try block. As it happened, I found two >> other lecturers who backed me up and the marks were increased, but >> only because I was an arrogant sod. Plenty of other people get marked >> down for silly reasons like that all the time without recourse. >> >> 4. Many people are on the wrong degree course. People who find >> programming to be something to avoid should not be on a CS course, >> simple as that. Worse, some (non-CS) degree courses are advertised as >> not containing any programming, and then actually do. >> >> On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 1:02 PM, Carl Jokl <[email protected]> wrote: >> > I don't know how many individuals on this forum have dealings with the >> > Academic world and so it might be a harder question to answer. >> > >> > I had a conversation with a member of staff about the state >> > programming being taught at the university. Coming from a programming >> > background I wondered if it could be improved. At the moment it does >> > not seem to be in a good state at all with the assessment not really >> > being appropriate to demonstrating proper understanding (I can see >> > some of this as slightly political as if a lot of students struggle >> > with a subject there is a tenancy to try and make it easier so a >> > fairly consistent number pass rather than just letting students >> > fail). >> > >> > Part of the discussion interested me. It seems as time goes on the >> > impression from the staff is that students have seemingly had a harder >> > and harder time understanding programming concepts. More students are >> > pushing to try and avoid their project involving any programming if >> > they can help it. This sentiment is even starting to be manifest in >> > some of the Masters (Postgrad) students. >> > >> > I wondered it this is a problem or trend confined just to the >> > University I am involved with (which I could accept) or if this is >> > part of a more widespread problem which others have observed >> > elsewhere? >> > >> > Is the computer world in which they grew up different to the point >> > that they have different expectations from computing than we may have >> > had? >> > >> > I find the ability to program empowering and find it a real shame that >> > so many students brand programming as "boring". I do think though that >> > using examples like ATM machines is hardly going make students exited >> > about programming. >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> > Groups "The Java Posse" group. >> > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > [email protected]. >> > For more options, visit this group at >> > http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. >> > >> > >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "The Java Posse" group. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > Romain PELISSE, > "The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist > on coming along and trying to put things in it" -- Terry Pratchett > http://belaran.eu/ > -- Romain PELISSE, "The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it" -- Terry Pratchett http://belaran.eu/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
