|As for my background - I'm not a Microsofty (actually I guess I am as I
|understand and use their technologies) - oh well. I am also a Linux / Java
|(J2EE Tech.) 'softy' and **love** what you guys are doing with the jBoss
|stuff. I also agree that J2EE is the only technology which is multiplatform
|etc. However, (gray hair showing) remember M6800 vs. 8080, CPM vs. DOS,
|*nix vs. Windows (3.1 at that!!), Borland (OWL) vs. MFC (sob!), DirectX vs.
|OpenGL, Navigator vs. Explorer, ... I have seen enough of how MS operates
|to want to protect our good stuff.
Fair enough, we are not fighting against dwarfs, ...oooh I like that :)
We *are* protecting the "goo" stuff :)
thanks for the input
marc
|The 'I don't care' remark refered to Sun's insistence that the network is
|the computer (or some such) - from the point of view of the end-user, it is
|the application and its functionality - the rest is plumbing. (And your
|implication is correct - plumbing does matter - to us).
|I guess we are in agreement (although slightly different perspectives) -
|there is a huge opportunity here to get the software engineering thing
|right.
|
|Best,
| Peter
|
|-----Original Message-----
|From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
|[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of marc fleury
|Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 3:34 PM
|To: jBoss Developer
|Subject: RE: [jBoss-Dev] Sun ONE response to MS
|
|
||Their strategy (and I think it is a good one) is to leverage the
||client side
||development stuff *into* the distributed application space and provide a
||seamless application server environment in which to execute applications.
||Not only this, but they will co-opt (through translation tools) Java
||components (classes, EJB) making 'migration' (assimilation) easier.
||
||To your point on the client driving the server - and to my point that
||interconnects becoming transparent does not change the equation (I don't
||care where my application runs, or how many machines it runs on,
||or which OS
||these machines run, or what hardware the OS runs on,...) - MS
|
|
|That is not correct.
|
|*you* don't care what OS or hardware your server app runs on ???? ohhhh I
|don't believe that, are you a student are you .edu? in fact I come from a
|background (SAP) where people would spend *months* and $M just figuring
|**that** out.
|
|Only a developer, and a clueless one at that, would say that.
|
|sysadmins RULE THE WEB. Do you understand? they DEEPLY care what OS and
|certainly what HARDWARE their stuff is running on. Look for that
|spark (pun
|intended) in their eyes when they talk about the backup strategies in
|distributed secured systems. You can't fuck with that.
|
|You don't care, he cares, deeply.
|
|Java has made the development indenpendent from the deployment. Thank GOD!
|I was working in this shop where we did a big server app with fancy win32
|clients all on HTTP/XML communication. It was server java (of course) and
|the DEPLOYMENT environment was INDEPENDENT (TOTALLY) from the development.
|They benched Linux and windows (2 years ago) and went with NT
|because of the
|state of VMs at the time. Had the VMs been good (like they are
|today) and I
|know they would have taken Linux for the ease of admin in farms. The fact
|that we used MS visual J was IRRELEVANT.
|
|So imho the big "seamless development environement" gospel from tool
|vendors, is is a lot of goo. It is just gospel from tool vendors.
|
|You develop it on development boxes
|it goes to QA
|You test on "sandboxes"
|couple weeks month later
|it might go into production
|in the cool env of war rooms
|
|Cycle again with the greatest of care and on all boxes.
|
|Separate people separate concerns separate budgets separate
|bosses separate
|building SEPARATE WORLDS etc etc...
|
|now go in a production environment holding that integrated candle
|to the SUN
|(pun intended) and watch the sysadmin slowly turn his face, to look at you,
|and see where that peeping voice is coming from. Take a good look in his
|darkened eyes, bleached by years of keeping these farms running. He will
|try to parse your statement, will fail, then quickly swap you out and go
|back to his console having made a "ln -s /home/bozo /dev/null" in his head.
|
|You just disapeared physically from his production world.
|
|I do buy that Windows **the OS** will dominate the workstation market, the
|tools? maybe for .net. So you can deploy on windows. I would even argue
|that you DON'T want integrated goo even in a pure MS world.
|
|But the code you produce will need to run on any platform cause you will be
|running Linux/BSD/Solaris/win2000 in the server farms... and ONLY j2ee is
|answering that today. .net, in the future, will be win2000 only.
|
|It's a stupid battle if you ask me... makes me wonder.
|
||*can* and will
||drive client application development into the server space by making
||invisible distributed application development (.NET) and by providing a
||managed distributed execution environment (COM+, attributed programming,
||unification of object models) - their version of an app. server.
|
|bla bla bla bla ... nah.
|
|They will have to fight fair and square on the server, the "integrated goo"
|won't stick.
|
|MS understands developers, they understand Client PCs, they understand
|"integrated development", they don't understand sysadmins, they don't
|understand networks, and I think they are NEW to the web services.
|
||So, what to do? Sun is in a difficult position for obvious reasons vis.
||Linux Solaris. The rest of the reasoning for Java open source, etc. goes
||here.
||
||BTW, I think IBM is going to come out of this smelling like roses
|- whoever
||is coming up with their strategy is doing a great job.
|
|That is true.
|
||It occurs to me that the developer group may not be the most appropriate
||place for these postings. If this is the case please let me know
||and I will
||cease and desist. Anyone who wants to send email to me directly:
||[EMAIL PROTECTED]
|
|it's fine, just turn on the brain and spot spouting marketing lines... you
|are among friends here.
|
|marc
|
||
||Very best regards,
|| Peter
||
||-----Original Message-----
||From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
||[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of marc fleury
||Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 10:18 AM
||To: jBoss Developer
||Subject: RE: [jBoss-Dev] Sun ONE response to MS
||
||
||well ok...
||
||there was a thread on /. 2 days ago about people abandoning linux on the
||client and going with windows. well duh! I dropped linux on my laptop and
||work primarily on a win2000 VAIO bad ass machine that I am VERY
|happy with.
||
||My server? linux. They come with win2000 I put linux on them. Why? cause
||it stable, manageable remote, comes with all the goodies I want
|and I (now)
||know how to secure them easily. Ease of use, ease of use.
||
||That is the one thing that I find funny in this new battlefield.
|Microsoft
||has a tradition of "eating from the bottom" and they are finding
|themselves
||eaten ALIVE by small linux servers. I was reading a "analyst" calling
||win2000 a "failure" because it was "failing" to kill the server market and
||few sites with *nix where switching to win2000.
||
||They bet the farm on win2000 as a IT server OS. At the top they have
||Solaris at the bottom they have Linux. Are they "irrelevant" on
|the server
||side technology standard driving????
||
||Dont get me wrong MS is a mighty company, I love win2000 on my laptop (use
||all day long) and I wouldn't go with Linux on my laptop for anything. But
||most of MS pattern was coming "from behind" leveraging a dominant position
||in the OS CLIENT. (think of Office, Explorer etc).
||
||Where is the dominant position on the SERVER. How much can a client
||monopoly drive SERVER technology. They *obviously* don't really
|understand
||the "service web" despite all the .net noise. The article was answering a
||dummy (i mean the question showed ignorance). So can they
||leverage a CLIENT
||monopoly on the SERVER? well it seems NOT MUCH. HTML as a
|client standard
||has made MS irrelevant. XML as a data formatting standard is making
||proprietary formats of storage irrelevant (blurb about Balmer putting his
||foot in his mouth).
||
||Finally J2EE is today 90% of the market place for APPLICATION SERVERS IN
||GENERAL (all categories C server, C++) where is the dominant
|position there
||as well to drive their standards?
||
||So I believe microsoft is *almost* irrelevant ;) on the web. Customers
||won't go in a "lock-in" on server because win2000 isn't going
|places there,
||linux is, solaris will remain. So their traditional "patterns" are not
||applicable anymore. I trust them to find something interesting
||but I am not
||shaking in my boots *yet*.
||
||Ok onto SUN. SUN KNOWS THAT .NET IS A "BOTTOM UP" THREAT AND THAT IBM AND
||BEA ARE NOT GOING TO FIGHT IT OFF. .NET will be a mass market technology,
||J2EE is still "ivory tower IT". Just like Solaris sits on top of
|Unix, BEA
||will sit on top of J2EE. US? WE SIT AT THE BOTTOM AND WORK OUR
||WAY UP, THAT
||IS HOW WE WILL "SQUEEZE" .NET BEFORE IT IS EVEN A SERIOUS THREAT.
||
||WE ARE A NECESSARY LITTLE FIGHTING DOG IN BATTLING .NET.
||
||So SUN has a big interest in helping us thrive we are their best
||and natural
||ally in fighting Windows and .net. you are right in saying that they must
||change their position with respect to Linux and Open Source Java... we are
||working on it, it will come
||
||marc
||
||
||
|||-----Original Message-----
|||From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
|||[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Peter F. Spicer
|||Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 8:11 AM
|||To: jBoss Developer
|||Subject: RE: [jBoss-Dev] Sun ONE response to MS
|||
|||
|||Microsoft is doing some interesting things with the .NET
|platform, some of
|||which (actually a large part of which) is based on the precepts
|of the EJB
|||architecture ('attribute' based programming and the like). As far as
|||competition is concerned they are talented and aggressive. The
|||responses in
|||the link are good - but this guy is light weight so no victories gained.
|||
|||The bigger issue for the Java community is will it survive? -
||looks like it
|||will right now, but it is 'closed', Sun has control and MS is putting
|||together frameworks which allow the ingest and conversion of Java
|||technologies to their platform (COM+). Once this is complete,
||the millions
|||of windows folks will not need to switch - which is OK. BUT, market
|||pressures may force us to switch. Hence MS does the usual end-run
|||(Browser,
|||OpenGL, ....). Sun should let go or at least modify their
||current strategy
|||v. Linux and Java.
|||
|||BTW, check out the unification of the object models across all languages
|||(and extension to same) on the .NET platform - a slick piece of software
|||engineering.
|||
|||Sun BTW is also wrong about the relationship of software to
||hardware - just
|||because the interconnects become transparent does not change the
|||fundamental
|||equation.
|||
|||-- Peter
|||
|||-----Original Message-----
|||From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
|||[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Rickard Öberg
|||Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 6:38 AM
|||To: jBoss Developer
|||Subject: [jBoss-Dev] Sun ONE response to MS
|||
|||
|||Hey
|||
|||In case you haven't seen this:
|||http://www.sun.com/dot-com/realitycheck/headsup010205.html
|||
|||"So.. do you feel lucky.. punk!" "Kablaaam"
|||
|||Well.. uhm.. I thought it was funny anyway :-)
|||
|||regards,
||| Rickard
|||
|||--
|||Rickard Öberg
|||
|||Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
|||
|||
|||
||
||
||
||
|
|
|
|
