Thanks for forwarding this Neeme,
my comments are in the mail
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 12:22 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Infozone
> > course. I would like to see Lucene and EJBoss under the ASF.
> What's "lucene"?
>
> About EJBoss: they came to us offering to donate their code. We said: we
> have to think about it. They replied: fine, if you don't want us, we'll
> go on anyway.
<facts>
Well, I appreciate the "we have to think about it".
What really happened is that java-apache folks voted *unanimously* +1,
except for one guy from IBM, surprise surprise, who said this is an ASF
decision.
Then Brian Behlendorf came down and said "we" (royal we) have to wait... and
that was the end of the democratic vote in the apache organization.
</facts>
There were two things going around
1- EJB, unlike JSP/servlet, is a VERY competitive COMMERCIAL market. Apache
trying to play it nice with IBM, SUN could not "nuke" the EJB market, close
to $1B for all these guys.
2- Brian and the rest of the bunch did NOT believe in EJB. I know for a
fact that this hasn't changed in fact it is worse... Jon Stevens very
recently went public on slashdot saying (and I quote) "
<jonstevens>
'Sun Announces Java Executive Committee Members'
Re:This is excellent news. (Score:1)
by jonstevens on Friday June 02, @05:33AM EDT (#50)
(User Info)
We don't need EJB Server representation. There are already 2+ OSS EJB
projects out there (I know, I host the CVS and mailing lists for one of them
on my machines...JBoss). Not having it directly under the ASF, isn't doing
us any harm at all because you can simply download the EJB servers from
other locations. Big deal. Also, in my personal opinion only, EJB is a nasty
buzz word that IS managers like to throw around. Only about 1% of the entire
web application arena really needs it, the rest of the people who are
developing on it are kidding themselves and wasting time/resources. It is
entirely possible to have 100% stable servlet web applications without the
need for the bulk that EJB adds. I wish that more people would wake up and
more correctly evaluate the technologies they are using for the applications
they are building instead of simply going along with Sun's marketing engine
blindfolded. Yes, Sun does make good technologies, but not everyone has to
use them for all cases. -jon
</jonstevens>
wow, right? "we are kidding ourselves and wasting our time and
ressources"...
So I hope that this little bit explains a little bit better what is really
going on in Apache, they are "IBM/SUN whipped" and they don't believe in the
technological vision.
> So Jon hosted them on cvs.working-dogs.com [snip]
Yes, along with other apache lists, we are still very grateful for that.
> been told by several different people that EJBoss community is rather
> messy and hard to deal with. Please, no offense intended, these are
> things I'm just quoting, not my personal thoughts.
How courageous... "I am just quoting ... not my personal thoughts..."
Here is a fighter I will want in my troups...well hear me out, and I am NOT
going to quote I am going to tell you exactly what I think about you guys.
<import std_disclaimer>
I will say that these are "mypersonalthoughts", and not the thoughts of the
organization at large and certainly not the thoughts of the board (rickard,
juha, dan and oleg) these are my personal thoughts. They are however the
thoughts of my employer ;-)
</import>
It is pretty obvious to me that the real reasons for EJBoss not joining
Apache in September were commercial and technological. In clear, that Brian
did not want it so that the apache "democracy" was overturned despite a
uninanimous vote. It was commercial in the sense that IBM and SUN did not
want to nuke a $1Bn market and so that dictated the politics as well. It was
technological in the sense that (and I did not see that one coming) that
neither the pure Apache guys, nor the leading java crowd at apache really
believed in the EJB technology anyway... To jump to a conlusion on
"attitude" on our part is a bit naive
I FEEL APACHE IS LOST!!!!!!
I will start with the technological vision.
It is naive to think that servlet/DB is all you need. See the market today
is for folks that already have their database and their schemas/SQL written
and so going to servlet is the easy solution. For those that come from the
web and treat the persistence as a service, servlets don't answer squat. In
short what you are seeing now is just a normal evolution of the technology
in time and the destination is still the component framework. The WEB-OS is
still what we are working on and servlets are a necessary part, not all
though. The only positive point is the catalina architecture that we feel
with the interceptor layout (just like jboss 2.0 ;-) will be very easy to
integrate.
I see no vision in apache. Just random growth from what was and remains the
web server.
I FEEL APACHE IS WEAK!!!!!!
This is the thing that really bothers me about them. I resent having what I
consider a "aparachick" coming to me and telling me what open source and
licenses are all about.
Let's not forget that the guys under the apache umbrella HAVE IT EASY. You
just live off the buzz of apache and brand recognition (as Steffano says,
they protect it). Yes! protect it as much as you can because believe me,
YOU WOULDN"T SURVIVE A MONTH BY YOURSELVES!!!!!!!!
You have no idea what it really takes to build a group, Brian does. You
just went to apache and it made you soft. You got a distorded view of what
the open source reality IS!!!. See to say that we are "competitive, harsh"
community is CORRECT! DONT FORGET we compete with Weblogic/BEA, Netscape,
SUN, IBM, AOL, Gemstone, Progress, Fiorano, Allaire, and about 50 OTHER
COMMERCIAL VENDORS (and we might win;-). While you guys had what .... JRun
(now allaire) as competition before SUN realized the market was so small it
could snuff it with Tomcat and Jakarta...
You have no idea...
No idea of the amount of time, of energy, of fight, of code, of recruitment,
of motivation, of management, of personal money many of us had to put in the
organization to make it strong. You guys just joined a succesful and almost
"on the retirement" army (where is the webserver market today?) and you come
down and talk to a bunch of paratroopers and marines that sharpened their
appetites and skills in battle and you talk to us with your finger going
"no-no", "not good"... you are just fat rich ladies around a tea cup...
your view of the battle field is academic.
SO DON"T COME AROUND TALKING TO ME ABOUT THE GPL!! The GPL has protected us
and still does, it is our armour. You don't see it because you don't need
an armour, you have the apache big brother.
Well hear me for my final plea...
apache is dying, your protector is dying, wise up, stay strong stay low...
join us!
> My only impression (when they approached java.apache for donation) was
> not that good: the behaved like they "deserved" it.
wow! (we deserve to donate??? wow, talk about arrogance!!!!!!) it was the
case that at the time we were looking for *your help*. And trust me there
was no arrogance at the time. You did not give it to us for the very good
and pragmatic reasons outlined above, we understood it, you didn't or did
not want to admit the reality of what the ASF was becoming, snap out of it!
you are thinking like a corporate aparachick fat cat that has nothing to do
but interpret the attitudes of the other ladies around their cucumber
sandwiches.
But YES! we have changed our attitude now...
you don't deserve us anymore, that's my gut feeling.
We are cutting it by ourselves, the architecture is there, the critical mass
is there.
We are going all out with project Game Over...
> About Kevin's idea of using the ASF as a rocket launching platform for
> every java project on the server side... well, that would suck. It would
> waste our name and tear the community in pieces.
>
> This is why GNU has a strong license with no formal process and the ASF
> has strong formal processes with a light license. To keep the name
> valuable.
arrogance. GNU has done so much for the open source world... comparing the
ASF to GNU is a bit premature. All of us young puppies weren't yet touching
our wee-wees as teenagers when the GPL and GNU was already working on what
became the basis for GNU-Linux. Have more stuff under your belt (and not
just FAT) before comparing your stuff to theirs.
> Apache doesn't incubate projects anymore: a project must be already
> started to be hosted and must already prove its value by itself. (not
> being perfect or even finished, but valuable and respected)
what makes you think you are so valuable. What makes you think you are this
elitist club..
> This is why we were afraid of EJBoss: the EJB open source community is
> very fragmented and very unfriendly to each other... why is that? Do we
> really want to stick our heads into that yet?
Again, because you grow fat under Apache you don't realize the war going on,
you don't realize what is at stake and you don't realize what is really
needed to fight... Ladies, can we get your attention now?
> I myself helped to create or port _many_ projects under the Apache flag
> (JMeter, Avalon, JAMES, Cocoon, Tomcat, Ant, FOP) and many more will
> come in the future.
>
> But if you look carefully from 30000 feet, there is a scheme: you can
> see sort of Natzca pictures down below that cover the field of server
> side technologies. But this is not a random collection and never will be
> until I'm around.
... Steffano, I am not sure there is a vision there... sorry
> --
> Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
> able to give birth to a dancing star.
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Friedrich Nietzsche
And you certainly don't live by the principles of your mentor do you ?
regards
marc
Co-Founder and CTO, Telkel Inc.
Founder and ex-lead developer, The jBoss Organization.
