Blah blah blah ... but you still never rebutted my point about NetBeans screwing up Java IDE revenue models. Thanks for reminding me that JBoss and NetBeans are both open source. As for open source app servers, we already got one. It's called the Sun ONE app server. It's certified. Put that in your JBoss pipe 'n smoke it.
http://www.oetrends.com/cgi-bin/page_display.cgi?77 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curt Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 11:24 PM Subject: Re: [JBoss-user] Say No to NetBeans > Tony Tortallini wrote: > > >I recommend against using the NetBeans IDE for application development. I > >think it's important to have a community process, open specs, and choice for > >the customer, absolutely. How that gets implemented, I don't particularly > >care. I actually think we need more revenue in the Java IDE space, so that > >they can do more advertising to get the message out, because right now the > >world is getting blitzed with Microsoft advertising, and promotion and > >branding and propaganda, and big lies, and that's why they're going, not > >because it's a better product. > > > >So, potentially you could make an argument that the open source IDE thing is > >just screwing up all the revenue models and they aren't getting the > >advertising, because it isn't the best technology that always wins, it's who > >advertises more. You could make a very strong argument that says, "No that's > >messing with it." And in fact Bill Gates may be sitting up there laughing > >his butt off because the open source IDE community is cutting the legs out > >from under all the R&D and promotion efforts of all the open interface > >strategies -- not open implementation, but open interface strategies. > >NetBeans is ruining it for everyone and don't even get me started on that > >while Apache thing. > > > > > > > Sorry, but the shortsightedness and ignorance of this post compels me to > reply. I don't know if this is a troll or very subtle sarcasm, but in > any case I can't let it sit out there without a rebuttal. > > Personally, I don't like NetBeans, I prefer IntelliJ for my IDE. I like > how IntelliJ gets in my way less than other IDE's and stays out of my > way when I use it's features. I don't have to change my development > style to match the IDE, nor am I tied in any way to the IDE. That's what > I want out of an IDE and that's what I feel that IntelliJ currently > delivers the best. > > Now, will I always use IntelliJ? That is always up for debate, Eclipse > may provide better integration with my tools, or NetBeans might get rid > of the 'virtual filesystem' stupidity that turned me off the first time > I used it. The second I think I will be more productive, you can bet I'm > jumping ship. I use JBoss for the same reason. I've been writing J2EE > apps for several years now and JBoss is by far the least brain-damaged > of all the J2EE app servers. I don't want to tie myself to WebSphere or > pay through the nose for a less stable platform like WebLogic. However, > my loyalty to JBoss only continues because the JBoss team continues to > deliver a product that meets my needs (My gratitude goes much farther > though, thanks guys). > > So what does JBoss or NetBeans, or most Open Source apps have in common? > They provide infrastructure services, the basic building blocks of the > system. Quite frankly, Sun's brain damage has done a lot more to hurt > the Java community than any Open Source project could dream to do. If it > wasn't for the Open Source implimentations do you have any question that > J2EE would be a niche technology today? Like Linux, Apache, Sendmail and > Bind, JBoss and NetBeans provide the basic tools to use these > environments. They all are the most popular because they are the most > cost effective solution and provide the most value to the majority of > the infrastructure's users. > > Given the choice between a Sun workstation and a RedHat box for my > desktop, I'd take the RedHat box, why? Does Solaris scale better? Yes. > Does Solaris have a more proven track-record? Yes. Minus hardware costs, > are they the same price? Yes. Why would I choose RedHat? With RedHat I > get every app I need with a 20 minute install and most of the others are > an 'rpm -ivh' away. I don't have to hand install bash, or make, or gcc, > it comes preinstalled. Perl is already there, as is Apache and Gnome. It > makes me more productive. > > Back to my comment about Sun causing more damage to the Java community. > Why doesn't my RedHat install have a working JDK, or a J2EE library > preinstalled? Because Sun thought it would be a good idea to charge > RedHat ~$2million for the privilege of doing compliance testing and > signing a distribution agreement. I got this from several RH employees > at the last ALS in Atlanta. Sun has also never released an Open Source > implementation of the JVM, they always cite 'predatory companies' in the > marketplace as the reason, and say they plan to. One might argue that > Sun has a need to keep Java from fragmenting, but that hasn't happened > in any of the areas of the JDK yet. Struts is becoming Java Server > Faces, Log4j is now Java Logging, Xerces was the basis for SAX and Axis > is the first implementation of the SOAP specs. In fact, a ton of the > popular Java 'standard features' have come from the Open Source > community. I don't see any of these causing any major 'fragmentation' > just good healthy competition in the marketplace of ideas. > > You may wonder how RedHat or the other Linux distro's shipping a full > Java environment would help strengthen the Java community. Look at PHP, > or Perl. It's a simple install on any Linux distro, a checkbox at > install or an apt-get install on Debian. Look at the PHP community, the > wealth of apps out there. J2EE web apps are not any more difficult to > program than PHP, but somehow the Java community is failing to win > hearts and minds. > > Let's look at another example of why proprietary infrastructure tends to > suck. Go ask your proprietary IDE vendor when they plan to offer full > support for XDoclet, Maven, Jelly, Middlegen or any of the AOP > frameworks. Do it in person, the looks on their faces are priceless when > they ask you what those things are. Those of us, the guys (and gals) who > actually build this stuff, are far better off sharing and improving our > own home grown tools than relying on any vendor's focus group. > > As for the R&D dollars, it would be better spent funding Open Source > infrastructure products. Most of the smart people in the industry > realize the widget factory money tree of user licenses is going away and > becoming less profitable, it's too competitive. Look at IBM, still the > largest revenue producer in the industry, just dumped $1 Billion plus > into Open Source. It's services now. Managed Services, Consulting > Services, Value Added Services. That's where IBM makes it's money and > that's how the small players get to differentiate themselves. The focus > today is on Open Specs and interoperability, anyone can compete in that > arena, you've got to stay ahead of the curve to make money. The IDE > vendors should look at how they can provide SourceForge like abilities, > integrated into Eclipse or NetBeans. They might want to pick up the ball > and write their own modules for XDoclet like JBoss is doing. Maybe they > could try and provide a ready to install, documented set of integrated > Open Source tools like EJB Solutions is doing. > > This idea that Open Source hurts Java is just McNealy whining. He > doesn't get it and that's why Sun and Java get hurt in the face of > Microsoft. Using Open Source tools and Java I can take projects that > used to take a man-year or more and do it myself in a quarter of the > time. I can provide a maintainable, well documented and designed > codebase that delivers a business and data storage infrastructure to > GUI's, web apps, web services and/or CORBA apps. I can write a web front > end for that is just as well designed and documented as the back end and > cluster the whole damn thing to a degree that my clients will never need > (we're not talking about little shopping carts here either). As a > freebie, I get transactional support, messaging services, security and > well... just go read the JBoss docs for the whole list, I haven't got > time to iterate through it all. > > The Java community needs to quit whining about M$, write your congress > critter (or your local trust busters outside the US) and have them step > up the pressure if your really concerned about M$. They're a bunch of > convicted monopolists who so far have gotten a dirty look at best. They > are going to play every trick in the book, so why don't we drink their > Kool-Aid? Cause our stuff is better. It's here, it's proven, it's in > production on enterprise systems. We just need to let our misguided > colleagues in on the secret. > > Write your favorite freebie computer rags (how many do you get? I can't > get them to stop sending me issues, even when I don't renew the free > subscription) or websites and tell them about your success stories, or > the ones you've heard about. Point them to the right places to find > them, like this list. Hell, maybe we can even get the always arrogant > OSDN crew to pay attention and realize the error of their PHP/Perl ways. > > So, in short, put down the Kool-Aid Tony and just take the Red pill. > Things are a lot better down the rabbit hole. > > Curt Johnson > Tampa Open Source Java Guru > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: > SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = Something 2 See! > http://www.vasoftware.com > _______________________________________________ > JBoss-user mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-user ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.NET email is sponsored by: SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = Something 2 See! http://www.vasoftware.com _______________________________________________ JBoss-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-user
