discussed: a GPL Jabber Server P2P Conference Identity
[14:05] * theo has changed the topic to: The DotGNU-Jabber Meeting [14:06] <theo> ok, while mike gets over, [14:07] <theo> i want to say hello, everyone! [14:07] <theo> and sorry for accidentally planning this on Thanksgiving, for all you fellow americans out there :) [14:08] <theo> um, [14:08] <theo> hello? [14:08] <jan> hi adam, hi everyone else! [14:08] <theo> ok, good, [14:09] <nb> Hi Jan, hi theo, hi karjala [14:09] <theo> i was starting to worry i was in the twilight zone here :) [14:09] <karjala> hi [14:09] <theo> ok, first item: "a GPL'ed Jabber Server" [14:10] * theo has changed the topic to: GPL'ed Jabber Server [14:10] <theo> http://subscribe.dotgnu.org/pipermail/developers/2001-November/001430.html [14:10] <theo> that's a link to a post i made a few hours ago, [14:10] <theo> about my discovery of how a GPL'ed Jabber Server exists already. [14:11] <nb> This is very good news. [14:11] <theo> it seems that up until v1.1.3 of the open source server, it was GPL'ed. [14:11] %% mike has joined [14:11] <theo> then starting with v1.2 it was completely relicensed to the new JOSL. [14:11] <theo> hi, mike! [14:12] <theo> glad you could make it. [14:12] <mike> heya [14:12] <mike> yeah. It seems that the jabber.org <> theoretic.com link isn't 100% right now. Or it might be my connection [14:12] <theo> nb: what are your thoughts on this discovery? [14:12] <mike> Anyway, one q - why is a GPLed Jabber server necessary? [14:12] <theo> no, i'm having s2s problems with jabber.org, too. [14:13] <mike> ok. is it the DNS propagation? [14:13] <theo> mike: because dotGNU would want to run their own Jabber implimentations, as part of dotGNU. [14:13] <nb> mike: Why we need a GPLed Jabber server... [14:13] <theo> this could only be done in the GPL. [14:13] <nb> Three reasons: [14:14] <theo> mike: nope, DNS is done. it's just seems to be another jabber.org glitch. [14:14] <nb> 1) People want an IM system as part of DotGNU... [14:14] <nb> this means among other things that we must be able to integrate a server for whatever IM system we use into the webservices server stuff... [14:15] <nb> This won't work if our stuff is GPL'd and the server has a GPL-incompatible license. [14:16] <nb> 2) Jabber has also been proposed as a protocol that DotGNU could use for other things (IM communication between pieces of software)... [14:16] <nb> Especially the JAM stuff, and the Jabber p2p ideas seem suitable for this purpose... [14:16] <theo> yep. [14:17] <theo> i'm particularly interested in the JAM aspect. [14:17] <nb> HOWEVER we cannot for reasons of priciple adopt a family of protocols where we would essentially provide momentum to a non-GPL-compatible project. [14:18] <mike> is that still alive? What's the major difference between JOSL and GPL then? [14:18] <theo> JOSL is mozilla-based. [14:18] <theo> it is not compatible with the GPL, meaning code cannot be forked over to the GPL. [14:19] <nb> 3) If it's true that Jabber,Inc took a GPL'd technology, bought it out by hiring the developers, and changed the licensing so that they would have some hooks on it, then what they've don eis just plain wrong / unethical, and it wouldn't be right to go along with it. [14:19] <theo> nb: by "providing momentum to a non-GPL-compatible project", you mean just not using the JOSL'ed Jabber server, right? [14:19] <nb> Yes... [14:19] <mike> well presumably the developers consented to that licensing change, yes? [14:20] <theo> yes. [14:20] <theo> they would have to. [14:20] <nb> mike: But people who contributed with stuff like bug reports etc weren't asked. [14:20] <theo> the JOSL is a very nice license. [14:21] <theo> i met many people at the p2p conf that were using the JOSL license in non-jabber projects. [14:21] <nb> theo: If DotGNU uses Jabber internally (not just as an IM system)... [14:21] <theo> nb: yes, probably so. it was just assumed that bug reporters with patches handed over their copyrights. [14:21] <theo> although, [14:22] <theo> to be fair, i don't think there were many, or even any, of those in the early jabber server. [14:22] <theo> from what i've seen, the entire codebase was done by the early core team. [14:22] <nb> then that will add a lot of momentum that to the JAM and p2p parts of Jabber. [14:23] <theo> nb: yep, i agree.it will finally get the JAM started again. [14:23] <nb> which is a good thing probably... [14:23] <nb> :-) [14:23] <theo> nb: would you want to takle the 1.1.3 codebase? [14:23] <theo> or hold out and try to get the 5 or so copyright holders to re-GPL it? [14:23] <mike> it might be worth reimplementing the server in java if you're going to do that [14:23] <nb> but DotGNU will work only with things that "proprietary-thinking" companies don't have hooks on. [14:24] <mike> And perhaps it's worth considering why they changed the license : presumably the GPL wasn't suitable for their needs [14:24] <theo> nb: how so? [14:24] <theo> mike: well, yes, for their needs. i don't think we are saying they were wrong. [14:25] <theo> they did what they felt they needed to. [14:25] <theo> what's important right now is dotGNU needs GPL'ed code, and there exists (albeit old) GPL'ed code. [14:25] <mike> ok [14:25] <nb> For some reason, they thought (maybe still think) that a GPL-compatibel license will not meet their needs. [14:26] <theo> so nb, think that dotGNU could use the 1.1.3 line? [14:26] <nb> Yes. [14:26] <theo> i'll get the post explaining the 1.0 landmark. [14:26] <theo> http://www.jabber.org/?oid=6 [14:26] <theo> that's announcing server 1.0. [14:26] <nb> My intuition (which is often right and sometimes wrong:) says that they won't truly want to coopertae with us. [14:27] <theo> yes, quite possibly. unfortunate, but likely. [14:27] <nb> In this case the way to go is to start from 1.1.3 and fork from there. [14:27] <theo> yep. [14:27] <theo> ok, so that established. [14:27] <mike> possibly [14:28] <mike> bear in mind that that line is UNIX only [14:28] <mike> is that a problem [14:28] <theo> a nifty new name for this 1.1.3 fork? [14:28] <theo> no. [14:28] <theo> shouldn't be at this early stage. [14:28] <mike> ok [14:28] <nb> I propose you informally check with the copyright holder if they're interested incooperating with us. [14:28] <nb> If they're not interested, don't go into long negotiations, but fork. [14:29] <theo> nb suggested "DotJab" as a name for this fork, [14:29] <theo> yep. [14:29] <theo> i agree, nb. [14:29] <nb> mike: Actually it's enough for us if the server-side stuff works on GNU systems (GNU/Linux, GNU/HUrd) and they're close enough to Unix. [14:30] <mike> sorry guys, got to go eat [14:30] <mike> later [14:30] <mike> i don't think i can contribute much at the moment anyway [14:30] %% mike has left [14:30] <theo> mike: ok, talk to you soon, i hope. [14:30] <theo> nb: ok. [14:30] <theo> sounds good. [14:31] <theo> i'll jabber Jer real quick to ask him, [14:31] <theo> and try and catch temas and dizzyd soon, too. [14:31] <nb> Good idea... invite them to come over :-) [14:31] <theo> oh, none of them are online right now. [14:32] <theo> prolly all celebrating thanksgiving. [14:32] <nb> Understandable. [14:32] <theo> oh, wait. [14:32] <theo> hold on. [14:32] <nb> So I suggest we invite them to the next meeting. [14:32] <nb> If they don't come, we have our answer :-) [14:33] <karjala> Who is mike? [14:33] <karjala> I mean, what's his relation to the jabber team? [14:34] <theo> mike is the main developer of Jabber Identity. [14:34] <karjala> I didn't catch that from the context of this discussion. [14:34] <nb> He's the primary developer of the (GPL'd) Jabber auth project. [14:35] <theo> yep, the two of us are developing a complete Identity system for Jabber. [14:35] <theo> ok, so that's established (GPL). [14:36] %% mass has joined [14:36] <theo> and i assume you are interested inJabber for instant xml routing, right? [14:36] <theo> hi, mass. [14:36] <karjala> theo: who is 'you'? [14:36] <nb> Me :-) [14:36] <theo> mass is a jabber developer. [14:36] <mass> heya :-) [14:36] <theo> "you" was actually meant broader :) [14:37] <theo> you in the 2nd person plural :) [14:37] * mass has missed quite a few dotgnu/jabber meetings now [14:37] <theo> hehe, that's fine. [14:37] <theo> we just finished talking about GPL'ing the Jabber server. [14:38] <mass> ahh [14:38] <theo> mass, did you know the JOSS was once GPL'ed? up till the 1.1.3 line. [14:38] <theo> i was shocked when i found out. [14:38] <mass> yeah, you didn't? :-) [14:38] <theo> always thought it was JOSL'ed the entire time. [14:38] <mass> I remember when the license changed [14:38] <mass> I've been with jabber since.. I think 99 [14:38] <theo> so it looks like dotGNU will be doing a fork of the 1.1.3 line. [14:38] <mass> either august of 99 or 98 [14:38] <theo> wow. [14:39] <theo> from the beginning, pretty much. [14:39] <mass> yep [14:39] <nb> Mass: Are you one of the copyright holders of JOSS? [14:39] <mass> about four months before the 0.7 server came out, which switched to pretty much what is the current protocol [14:39] <mass> nah; I wrote jabberbeans [14:39] <theo> oh, so the protocol implimented in the 1.1.3 line is the same as 1.4? [14:40] <mass> well [14:40] <mass> more or less [14:40] <theo> ah, ok. [14:40] <theo> minor changes. [14:40] <theo> gotcha. [14:40] <mass> probably less :-) [14:40] <theo> ah, ok. [14:40] <mass> 1.4 had some IO changes, that was the big thing [14:40] <theo> IO? [14:40] <mass> the goal was to make the server a good framework for writing components [14:40] <theo> as in c2s, s2s? [14:41] <mass> and things like transports and yeah, c2s and s2s need to handle lots of sockets [14:41] <theo> ah, ok. [14:41] <mass> so the idea was that you can create all these components as building blocks [14:41] <mass> and run them all within one process, or in separate processes [14:42] <nb> We're building something like this in DotGNU anyway. [14:42] <nb> So we could just use that stuff... [14:42] <mass> also everything within the docs.jabber.org 'draft protocol' section which requires server code was implemented in 1.4 [14:42] <theo> ah, ok. [14:42] <mass> I would of course recommend trying to get the right people in the right place and see if the server can be dual-licensed, rather than (basically) forked [14:43] <theo> yes, going to try that first. [14:43] %% mike has joined [14:43] <mass> that would by far be the best for everyone [14:43] <theo> yep. [14:43] <nb> Yes... [14:43] <theo> hi, mike [14:43] <theo> ok, thanks mass. [14:44] <mike> heya [14:44] <theo> well, [14:44] <nb> I heard from Bradley Kuhn (VP FSF) that he and RMS have already tried talking with them about this... [14:44] <theo> that concludes the GPL topic, i guess :) [14:44] <theo> nb: eh? [14:44] <mass> ahh really? [14:44] <theo> nb: talking to them about what? [14:44] <nb> it may take a real threat of a fork to get them to change their mind :-) [14:45] <theo> oh, interesting... [14:45] <theo> didn't know that. [14:45] <theo> wow, that's interesting. thanks norbert. [14:47] <mike> ping [14:47] * theo has changed the topic to: O'Reilly P2P Conference Report [14:47] <mike> still here then [14:47] <mike> ok cool [14:47] <theo> alrighty. [14:47] <theo> as many of you know, i attended the P2P conference, [14:47] <mass> (lucky bastard ;-) ) [14:47] <theo> sponsored by IMissary <www.imissary.com> [14:48] <theo> IMissary is Heg's new start-up, [14:48] <theo> to develop and sell jabber products, as well as jabber consulting. [14:48] <theo> he was gracious enough to provide money for room and board up there. [14:48] <theo> there was alot of talk about Jabber, [14:48] <theo> after i brought the topic up. [14:49] <theo> and even heard dotGNU come up a couple of times. [14:49] <nb> Is imissary a Free Software company? [14:49] <nb> (Their website doesn't seem to work) [14:50] <theo> on dotGNU, i think there was a panel talking about Identity Services and the Liberty Alliance that mentioned it as a viable alternative to dotNET. [14:50] <theo> nb: no, it isn't. it's commercial. [14:50] <mass> website worked ok here [14:51] <theo> and i brought it up in my Identity Services speach. [14:52] <theo> overall, alot of focus went to .NET. [14:52] <theo> *alot* [14:52] <mike> no surprises there [14:52] <theo> from the atmosphere of the conference, alot of people are considering .NET as a viable platform to adopt. [14:52] <mass> *grin* I still haven't quite figured out what microsoft thinks .Net is [14:52] <theo> this is mainly to do with 2 things, IMO: [14:52] <mike> lol. They have a definition somewhere [14:53] <theo> the "gloss" that Microsoft has surrounded .NET with. [14:53] <nb> mass: The difnition is changing all the time... .NET is simply about catching everyone in a .NET and locking them in. [14:53] <theo> all the presentations about .NET portrayed it as a this bold, innovative new thing that was *clean and simple*. [14:54] <theo> that is what seemed to be the theme MS used. *clean and simple*. [14:54] <theo> thought that might be of interest to dotGNU. [14:54] <mike> and i have to admit - it is [14:55] <theo> and that dotGNU could do the same by adopting a clean and simple [platform, Jabber, for an underlaying protocol. [14:55] <nb> Were those MS representative speaking, or independant companies? [14:55] <theo> mike: it is? yeah, i havn't had a chance to look into it much. [14:55] <mike> The programming model is [14:55] <mike> HailStorm is something different [14:55] <theo> MS reps were everywhere, but those were speakers. [14:55] <theo> mike: ah, ok, i see. [14:55] <theo> one thing: [14:56] <theo> .NET is fully using http to route. [14:56] <theo> dotGNU could do better in the realm of power, flexability, and security by using Jabber. [14:56] <mike> not true [14:56] <mike> they have developed something called DIME [14:56] <theo> just thought i'd plug this again :) [14:56] <theo> DIME? never heard of it....? [14:56] <mike> it's like a lightweight Jabber, but without all the s2s routing etc. [14:56] <theo> oh, huh.... [14:57] <theo> can it be found anywhere? [14:57] <mike> no, it's still pretty new. Direct Internet Message Encapsulation i think [14:57] <theo> oh, ok... [14:57] <theo> sounds interesting. [14:57] <theo> i'll try to look into it. [14:57] <nb> Actually DotGNU wants the s2s routing. [14:57] <theo> hm... [14:58] <nb> We want dollars, not just dimes :-) [14:58] <theo> is it just me, or do others see potential battle lines being drawn in technology between these different groups? [14:58] <mike> hehe. Not really [14:58] <theo> i mean, the Free and Open world potentiall using Jabber, [14:58] <theo> .NET & other proprietary companies using DIME, [14:58] <theo> and AOL will whip something out, i'm sure... [14:59] <nb> AOL hates MS so much... [14:59] <theo> ah, well. just me :) [14:59] <mike> DIME will probably be an open protocol, or basically open. [14:59] <theo> nb: yep. they will never use .NET. [14:59] <nb> that we actually have a chance to get them supporting our standards. [15:00] <theo> nb: maybe... but i think AOL sees itself as the "real" internet, and will do their own thing, but ultimately blunder it. [15:00] <mike> hmmmm, doubt it. maybe though. knowing aol they'd rather die than use something that wasn't developed by them [15:00] <theo> yep. [15:00] <nb> The trick is that we need to get the banks on our side first. [15:00] <theo> yes, true. [15:00] <nb> Everyone wants to be able to process payments :-) [15:00] <theo> ok, any questions about the p2p conf? [15:01] <mike> banks? [15:01] <mike> ah yes, i see [15:01] <theo> mike: yeah, secure, safe transactions. [15:01] <theo> i've read that many banks that are tech-savvy are skeptical of .NET's security. [15:01] <nb> The banks hate Microsft, too. That�'s our big opportunity. [15:01] <theo> yep. [15:02] * theo has changed the topic to: Identity [15:02] <theo> ok, mike, have any updates on Jabber Identity/Genio? [15:02] <theo> Genio, btw, is the new name for the system, while Jabber Identity is the jabber-specific implimentation. [15:03] <mike> not really. I've been redesigning it a bit lately, and getting the hang of Java, as I'm planning on reimplementing it in Java using servlets/APACHE SOAP [15:03] <theo> ah, ok... [15:03] <mike> Yeah. Genio is the system. Jenio is the jabber based implementation. Or at least, that's current thinking [15:03] <mike> i'm redesigning that oo [15:03] <theo> ok, cool. [15:03] <nb> Do you have a website up yes for Genio? Released code? [15:04] <blalor> or a quick overview of what Genio is? [15:04] <mike> this is all subject to change without notice of course :) [15:04] <mike> almost [15:04] <mike> it's coming soon [15:04] <mike> for now, www.theoretic.com/identity [15:04] <theo> right now it's just at Theoretic [15:05] <theo> oh, [15:05] <theo> and i'm going to try and get into the Liberty Alliance, and pitch Genio to them as a solution. [15:05] <theo> they are looking for something, i hear. [15:06] <theo> and Genio fits everything they need. [15:06] <mike> Right. We are hopeful about that [15:06] <blalor> I'm a little confused; how would something like Genio work across messaging platforms? [15:06] <blalor> jabber s2s is great for a distributed network of servers, but what about something that's on a different network? [15:07] <mike> Genio and Messaging is still being designed. Basically I see it one of the web services you can associate with offering platform independant access to messaging networks [15:07] <theo> Genio is not language-specific. [15:07] <mike> So you can use Jabber as the messaging system if you want, or else use a different method of sending messages/notifications etc [15:07] <theo> it just really defines what components are needed in a Genio system, [15:07] <blalor> I think a big-picture overview with lots of little pictures and arrows is much needed [15:07] <theo> and lets the various programming languages and platforms do that how they can. [15:08] <mike> Or platform specific [15:08] <theo> yep, we're working on that. [15:08] <theo> i'll be doing the big picture stuff, probably. [15:08] <mike> It's coming! Don't worry- problem is right now the big picture keeps changing, and the little arrow keep moving [15:08] <theo> hehe. [15:08] <nb> :-) [15:09] <theo> ok, i think that wraps this up. [15:09] <theo> is there anything else real quick? [15:10] <theo> ok, that's it. [15:10] <theo> thank you everyone, [15:10] <theo> i'll put some stuff together and see if there is need for another meeting next week. -- /\ -- Adam Theo, Age 22, Tallahassee FL USA -- //\\ Theoretic Solutions (http://www.theoretic.com) /____\ "Software, Internet Services and Advocacy" /--||--\ Personal Website (http://www.theoretic.com/adamtheo) || Jabber Open IM (http://www.jabber.org) || Email & Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] || AIM: AdamTheo2000 ICQ: 3617306 Y!: AdamTheo2 "A free-market socialist computer geek patriotic American buddhist." _______________________________________________ jdev mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.jabber.org/listinfo/jdev
