Hi, all. Another successful Jabber/DotGNU meeting. here's the log: please send me your requests for dates (thirsday or friday) and times (any time) for a regular weekly meeting.
[17:48] <theo> ok, bringing up the Agenda... [17:51] <theo> first item: inter-process communication. [17:51] %% ajmitch has joined [17:51] <theo> i'm quite sure jabber can be used for routing of XML around the net, [17:51] <theo> hi, ajmitch :) [17:52] <theo> does anyone from dotgnu have any comments about what dotgnu needs? [17:53] %% allgaier2 has joined [17:53] <nb> My comment would be that we don't need this urgently at all :-) [17:53] %% rs has joined [17:53] <chillywilly> er? [17:53] <theo> ok, why do you say that? [17:53] <chillywilly> sure we do [17:54] <chillywilly> can jabber route SOAP? [17:54] <nb> The urgent objective is to build a webservices platform that is copyleft and that can compete with .NET [17:54] <theo> nb: you don't think that dotGNU needs XML routing right now? [17:54] <chillywilly> dude and how do you expect the pieces to talk to each other? [17:54] <nb> Yes, that is an urgent need. [17:54] <WeAreAllJesse> Err..uhh...what is dotgnu? [17:54] <theo> chilly: yep, jabber can route SOAP, and XML-RPC, and any other text... [17:54] <theo> Jesse: [17:55] %% fingolfin has joined [17:55] <chillywilly> http://dotgnu.org [17:55] <theo> sorry, dotGNU is a platform being developed by GNU and FreeDevelopers to provide web services, authentication, identity, etc... [17:55] <theo> in response to Microsoft's .NET project. [17:55] <fingolfin> the core of Jabber (which used to be called etherx) is essentially a XML routing system [17:55] <chillywilly> http://goats.gnue.org/~chilywilly/gcomm/ is something I am starting [17:55] <nb> chillywilly: First we need to need to have pieces running that do something useful. [17:56] <WeAreAllJesse> And I guess that thing that AOL was working on to compete with .NET [17:56] <chillywilly> but dave and I gave it a different name ;) [17:56] <theo> fin: right. Jabber is all about XML routing. [17:56] <chillywilly> nb: a distributed object system is needed [17:56] <nb> And in order to be able to run code remotely, we need a secure execution environment and an auth system. [17:56] <nb> Those are the top priorities. [17:57] <chillywilly> nb: yea, but I am not gonna be doing either one of those right now... [17:57] <theo> nb: hm... ok, understood. let's move onto that now, Authentication. [17:57] <nb> chillywilly: I agree about hte need for a distributed object system... [17:57] <theo> too bad Mike Hearn is not here, [17:57] <theo> he's the local spearheader of authentication. [17:57] <nb> but that isn't the top priority right now... [17:58] <theo> mike has worked out a complete auth system, [17:58] <rs> chillywilly:the link you posted returns a 404 [17:58] %% fingolfin has left [17:58] <chillywilly> hmmmm [17:58] <nb> I'd be happy to disucss this with you in some detail at another occasion :-) [17:58] %% fingolfin has joined [17:58] <theo> that uses tokens. digging up mike's stuff now.. [17:58] <fingolfin> yet another auth system? :) [17:59] <theo> haha, [17:59] <nb> I have a list of ten possible auth systems that exist or are under development. [17:59] <theo> over on the jabber lists there have been alot of talk about authentication. [17:59] <theo> we are getting ready to create a auth framework for jabber, [17:59] <nb> One item on my list is "Jabber auth" ... [18:00] <nb> I'd really love to learn more about this. :-) [18:00] <theo> that will provide a basic framework, and allow "modules" to be plugged in to do certain types of auth, like Kerberos, or my Immier plan, or mike's Ticket plan, etc... [18:00] <fingolfin> jabber has a nice 0k auth system, and jer just added in the last missing piece to it :) [18:00] <fingolfin> theo: that sounds good [18:00] <theo> fin: oohh... awesomwe. [18:00] <fingolfin> theo: one hint, though, try to keep it ... implementable [18:00] <theo> yes, i agree. [18:01] <fingolfin> i.e. with jabber we tried to keep it such that clients are easy to implement [18:01] <nb> How much momentun does the Jabber auth project have? [18:01] <theo> alot now. [18:01] <fingolfin> I guess I could add 0k auth/registration to JabberFoX within a couple of hours (if I had that time...) [18:01] <theo> and nb: [18:02] <theo> "Jabber Auth" is turning out to be a framework that allows different ways and models of authentication. [18:02] <theo> so dotGNU could develop a auth system that works best for it, and use that within dotGNU, [18:02] <nb> Do you have a website about it? [18:02] <theo> while remaining 100% interoperable with other "jabber auth" systems. [18:02] <theo> currently the only info is the webbed logs of the lists, [18:03] <theo> which i'm bringing up now. [18:03] <fingolfin> uhm [18:03] <fingolfin> if you mean websites about jabber's 0k, there are plenty, or do you mean the auth architecture in general? [18:04] <fingolfin> erhm, plenty -> two, one for 0k auth, one for 0k reg :) [18:04] <theo> some threads: [18:04] <theo> http://mailman.jabber.org/pipermail/jdev/2001-September/008599.html [18:05] <theo> http://mailman.jabber.org/pipermail/jdev/2001-September/008616.html [18:05] <theo> ah, hell, this entire month archive: http://mailman.jabber.org/pipermail/jdev/2001-September/thread.html [18:05] <theo> and this last month's: http://mailman.jabber.org/pipermail/jdev/2001-October/thread.html [18:06] <theo> that is all on general distributed auth system framework in jabber [18:06] <theo> fin: and what about Jabber's auth OK system? [18:06] <theo> in docs.jabber.org? [18:06] <nb> Would there be any chance of finding a Jabber person who would be interested in porting some of the work that is done in the Jabber community to make it available under DotGNU? [18:07] <theo> you mean code? [18:07] <theo> yes, quite sure. [18:07] <theo> i'll ask around for you, if you want, [18:08] <theo> or you could drum up support by subscribing to the [EMAIL PROTECTED] list... [18:08] <theo> http://mailman.jabber.org/jdev [18:08] <nb> You know, DotGNU auth is really like a horse race... [18:08] <theo> ack, [18:08] <theo> http://mailman.jabber.org/listinfo/jdev [18:08] <theo> how so? [18:08] <nb> several auth projects running and we'll see which one runs best. [18:09] <theo> yes, my thoughts, too. [18:09] <theo> but here's a suggestion: [18:09] <nb> I think a jabber-based project would have very good chances to gain very good momentum. [18:09] <fingolfin> theo: wait, I can post in two links regarding 0k [18:09] <theo> heavily work with us on developing this common framework. [18:09] <theo> if the framework itself comes out to your liking (is very flexible and secure enough) [18:09] %% WeAreAllJesse has left [18:09] <fingolfin> http://docs.jabber.org/draft-proto/html/zerok.html [18:10] <fingolfin> http://core.jabber.org/white/zerokreg.sgml.html [18:10] <theo> then just take the ideas you had for dotGNU, and turn them into "modules" for this jabber auth framework. [18:10] <theo> then let them conmpete. [18:10] <nb> In what language are you implementing in, and what license are you using? [18:10] <chillywilly> is this a good doc t start reading to learn jabber? [18:10] <theo> this would be better, IMO, b/c it would ensure interoperability between all of them, [18:10] <chillywilly> the have their own license [18:10] <chillywilly> JOSL [18:10] <fingolfin> w/o being involved into dotgnu, I think dotGNU could profit from the existing Jabber implementations & work already done; and Jabber could profit from dotGNU on the long run, too [18:11] <nb> Even is the short run... [18:11] <fingolfin> JOSL is similiar to the Mozilla license [18:11] %% allgaier2 has left [18:11] %% dirkx-mac has left [18:11] <theo> implimentations: there is the Jabber Open Source Server, covered by the JOSL and written in C. [18:11] <fingolfin> chillywilly: the two docs I posted are probably not goot to start learning jabber :) [18:11] <theo> there is also a Java server starting up, [18:11] <nb> Foir example there will be a conference the the cyberspace policy institute at George Washington University early next year... [18:11] <rs> chillywilly:http://docs.jabber.org [18:11] <theo> and a Python server. [18:12] <theo> i don't know about their licensing, though. [18:12] <chillywilly> nb: another one? [18:12] <fingolfin> nb: I don't think so, unless dotGNU manages to do a lot on the shortrun, and then it would be the first project of this kind to do so :) but maybe mid run? :) [18:12] <theo> and i have [plans for a Perl implimentation written in Kuhn's Artistic License 2.0 [18:12] <nb> Yes, another one specifically about auth and virtual ID. [18:12] <chillywilly> no copyleft? [18:13] <nb> The important people in Washington are very interested in that kind of thing now. [18:13] <theo> chilly: i don't know. the Jabber Open Source Server is not copyleft, no, but the others might. [18:13] <nb> For DotGNU copyleft is very important. [18:13] <theo> [18:12] <dyfet> Since even the Mozilla project eventually was forced to consider this, would this end up being dual licensed? [18:14] <theo> i don't think the JOSS will be open sourced, [18:14] <nb> In fact anything other than GPL is likely to be a major obstacle. [18:14] <theo> but i do think there will be both the Jabber Open Source Server in the JOSL, and a GNU Jabber server(s) in the GPL, [18:14] <theo> each would take different approaches to doing Jabber, i think, [18:15] <chillywilly> hey this standard is open so you could implement it any way you like [18:15] <chillywilly> with whatever license you like [18:15] <theo> and i'm sure there will be programmers working on the JOSS now that will give their code to the GNU implimentation, [18:15] <theo> chilly: yep, exactly. [18:16] <theo> the specs are open. anyone can impliment under any license. [18:16] <chillywilly> it is nice to have GPL'd jabber stuff though...for dotgnu anyway [18:16] <theo> yep, and it will happen, i'm sure. [18:16] <theo> there are already GPL'ed clients... [18:16] <theo> quite a few, in fact. [18:16] <theo> so, licensing won't be an issue, i think. [18:17] <theo> jabber is 100% open, so implimentations can be any license. [18:17] <theo> and there will be quite a number of coders that will give their current JOSL code to GPL, i'm sure. [18:18] <nb> So the main issue would be to find project leaders who are knowledgeable abou the Jabber stuff, and well-connected in the Jabber community? [18:18] <theo> so, next business: authorization and access control. [18:18] <theo> nb: yep, although jabber is simple enough that you could just use the docs as a ref to build an implimentation. [18:18] <theo> the protocol docs are self-explanitory. [18:19] <theo> it's just a matter of deciding what tools to use to build the server, and what "tactics" to take in programming it. [18:19] <theo> i'm sure the vast collective experience of the GNU community can produce some excellent implimentations. [18:19] <chillywilly> what do we gain by using jabber as the messagin backend? [18:19] <theo> using all GNU tools. [18:19] <nb> In many areas of programming, experience is extremely important. [18:20] <theo> for one: Jabber already exists. it is flexible, fast, and moderatley secure (we are working to make that *very* secure now) [18:20] <fingolfin> chillywilly: a well-thought, tested and established enginge? [18:20] <nb> I mean specific experience... I wouldn't want to bet on a team that is not led by a person who has specific experience related to jabber. [18:21] <theo> so authorization: jabber is also working on a access control/permissions system. [18:21] <theo> it is part of the "Jabber Profiles" work, run by me and Mike Hearn. [18:21] <nb> How secure is your "*very* secure"? Comparable to GnuPG? [18:21] <theo> nb: ah, ok. gotcha. i for one am willing to help dotgnu programmers understand Jabber. [18:21] <theo> nb: hopefully more secure. [18:22] <chillywilly> thing is no mattter what someone is going to have to learn the jabber system [18:22] <theo> nb: one of the goals of Heg (here in the room) is to tuirn Jabber into a real-time e-commerce b2b platform, [18:22] <theo> to do large and very sensitive financial transactions and verifications. [18:22] <nb> That's good to hear. [18:23] <theo> he wants it to be the infrastructure of the banking industru for the 21st centrury. [18:23] <theo> yes, so i'm confident that with enough man power, jabber's security will only be a matter of "how secure you want it?" [18:24] <nb> I think having a DotGNU port of his stuff would be a wise marketing move for him in that case. [18:24] <theo> yep, i'm sure it would. [18:25] <nb> You know I talked with the chairman of an industry consortium today... [18:25] <theo> authorization: Jabber Profiles covers access control and Permissions: http://www.theoretic.com/profiles [18:25] <nb> he told me how the credit card companies don't want to pay a "Microsoft tax"... [18:25] <theo> hm..... very interesting... very good. [18:26] <nb> but each copany is currently most interested in developing their own stuff and then pushing it as a standard. [18:26] <theo> i'm going to be attending the "Open Source in Banking and Finance" conference in early november. [18:26] <theo> hope to make lots of contacts there. [18:26] <nb> It's *not* going to be easy for us to break into that kind of market. [18:26] <theo> next on the list: registration/subscription infrastructure. [18:26] %% rs has left [18:27] <theo> nb: i agree. but it can be done with smart marketing and packaging. [18:27] <theo> registration: [18:27] <theo> nb, what do you think of jabber providing the infrastructure for registration and subscription to servives for dotgnu? [18:28] <nb> Really the only way to build credibility is via conference in mainstream venues such as CPI. [18:29] <nb> Theo: what exactly do you mean with "registration and subscription"? [18:29] <theo> hm... [18:29] <theo> in jabber, this sort of thing will be very flexible, [18:29] %% fingolfin has left [18:29] <nb> I think people will expect to sign up to all kinds of services via forms on websites... [18:29] <theo> a Pub/Sub working group was just created to discuss this sort of thing, but... [18:30] <nb> that's what webmasters and customers are used to today. [18:30] <theo> i mean registrations as in becomming a "dotgnu member". getting an account, etc... [18:30] <theo> and subscriptions as in signing up to get stock quotes, or calendaring services, etc. [18:31] <theo> both of which could be managed as the userb wants, likely from a central "location" (like their home computer) [18:31] %% chillywilly has left [18:31] <nb> If you want to push any other solution (different from HTML forms) that's going to be a tough sell I think. [18:31] %% chillywilly has joined [18:31] <theo> possibly. [18:31] <theo> and this will lead into jabber and dotgnu's solutions to 'winforms'. [18:32] <nb> What are "winforms" ? [18:32] <theo> i think they are microsoft's "solution" to merging the web with the desktop.... in a UI perspective. [18:33] <theo> a common "spec" that can be used to create forms on a website or a local application, also create websites that look and act like a desktop app. [18:33] <theo> basically universal, "cross platform" form mark up. [18:34] <theo> [18:33] <dyfet> in other words new form tags for windows ui elements? [18:34] <theo> dyfet: yep, exactly. [18:34] <theo> i guess i should start wrapping this meeting up, [18:34] <chillywilly> i was reading about how they xml would lead to a standardized UI markup language [18:35] <theo> and saving the rest for next week (which should hopefully go off smoother :-) [18:35] <theo> yes, [18:35] <chillywilly> ya, maybe dave can say something in here [18:35] <chillywilly> :P [18:35] <theo> there are a number of alternatives: [18:35] <theo> XUL, wxWindows, XForms, etc... [18:36] <theo> [18:35] <dyfet> figures...i will have to see how that works its way thru w3c! [18:35] <dyfet> lol [18:36] <theo> ok, i think this will be a wrap. [18:36] <theo> it gives us alot to chew about, [18:36] <theo> and i think the most important thing from this meeting was the talk about licensing and implimentations. [18:37] <chillywilly> time to hack! [18:37] <chillywilly> for those of us who have no lives [18:37] <theo> now everyone understands how a dotgnu implimentation can work. [18:37] %% allgaier2 has joined [18:37] <theo> legally-wise :) [18:38] <nb> Theo, can you put David and me in touch with the key people in the auth and ecommerce-related Jabber projects? [18:38] <theo> so, any last comments? i'll be posting this archive to the web, to both jabber and dotgnu lists... [18:38] %% chillywilly has left [18:38] <theo> nb: no prob. [18:38] <theo> i'll get you hooked up over the next 2 days. [18:38] <nb> Sounds great... thanks! [18:38] <theo> <dyfet> Actually this was informative, even with this annoying problem. We absolutely should talk more. [18:39] %% allgaier2 has left [18:39] <theo> dyfet: i agree... [18:39] <theo> i will make this a regular, weekly thing. [18:39] <theo> is Friday or Thursday best for everyone here? [18:39] <theo> and what about time? like now or earlier? [18:40] <theo> [18:39] <dyfet> And I will fix my client if its at my end... [18:40] <theo> dyfet: i'll help you, [18:40] <nb> If it's Friday, then I'd request that it shouldn't be earlier. [18:40] %% chillywilly has joined [18:41] <theo> ok, [18:41] <nb> On Thursdays essentially any time can be arranged, in most weeks. -- /\ -- Adam Theo, Age 22, Tallahassee FL USA -- //\\ Theoretic Solutions (http://www.theoretic.com) /____\ "Software, Internet Services and Advocacy" /--||--\ Personal Website (http://www.theoretic.com/adamtheo) || Jabber Open IM (http://www.jabber.org) || Email & Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] || AIM: AdamTheo2000 ICQ: 3617306 Y!: AdamTheo2 "A free-market socialist computer geek patriotic American buddhist." _______________________________________________ jdev mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.jabber.org/listinfo/jdev
