Hi Stephen,

I just want to point out that this isn't a proposal per se. I don't advocate any particular syntax, nor recommendation for patterns that users should use. This is merely a set of requirements that we (Red Hat) have identified as necessary in order to enable the widest range of existing middleware systems to continue to function with a minimum of disruption or security compromises. Any proposal that we accept will necessarily meet these requirements, though these requirements may or may not be sufficient for acceptance (only testing will tell us the full story).

The reason I didn't boil it down to the same set of questions that you have asked is that those questions are simply not sufficient to meet the requirements of a modern middleware application. To quote the JSR description: "This JSR will define an approachable yet scalable module system [...] so that developers can use it to construct and maintain libraries and large applications for both the Java SE and Java EE Platforms. [...]"

I think it's very possible for the platform module system to be specified and implemented in such a way as to enable the continued maintenance of existing libraries and large applications, however in order to do so, it is our estimation that these requirements must be met.

In response to the way you've narrowed down the scope of requirements: I agree that such simplifications work well when establishing boundaries for a new project and encouraging good usage patterns. But I don't think we can really do that here; there is too much existing work out there, and the requirements go far beyond what can be satisfied by these simple questions.

On 09/26/2016 05:11 AM, Stephen Colebourne wrote:
Having read this proposal a number of times, and considering how the
talks explained things at JavaOne, I have come to the conclusion that
this proposal is too complex. FWIW, I like the idea that a module
should be able to declare that it needs reflective access from its
users, however given that the proposal is what results from the idea,
it doesn't seem as appealing as it should.

The reason why I put forward the exports/exposes approach [1] is that
it keeps the questions that must be asked when creating a module
simple:
- what do I depend on publicly (requires)
- what do I publish publicly (exports)
- what do I publish privately (exposes)

From a security point of view it also seems that it should be the
responsibility of a module to allow the publishing of its private
details, and simply depending on another module seems very minimal
(and easy to miss) as a mechanism to allow that extra permission.

Stephen

[1] http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/jigsaw-dev/2016-September/009370.html


On 21 September 2016 at 17:39, David M. Lloyd <david.ll...@redhat.com> wrote:
In our internal discussion of the proposal for
#ReflectiveAccessToNonExportedTypes, we discussed the ins and outs of
various behaviors and have come up with a few ideas or starting points for
solutions that we think would be more workable in conjunction with existing
middleware (ours and others').

For reasons previously explained, we do not think that weak modules are a
good way forward; I won't go into that again here.  But the logical
re-starting point is: If not weak modules, then what?

I will boil it down to a few basic requirements that we have established.
This list is probably non-exhaustive but hopefully complete enough to go on
for now:

• A module definition must be able to establish that a dependent has (or all
modules have) access to one or more (or all) packages for public reflection
only.
• A module definition must be able to establish that a dependent has (or all
modules have) access to one or more (or all) packages for public or private
reflection only.
• A module definition must be able to establish that a dependent has (or all
modules have) access to one or more (or all) packages for public reflection
and compilation/linkage (i.e. it's an export by today's terminology).
• A module definition must be able to establish that a dependent has (or all
modules have) access to one or more (or all) packages for public or private
reflection and compilation/linkage (i.e. it's a "private" export by today's
terminology).
• As today, any packages not declared in one or more of the above categories
is inaccessible outside of the module in any way (note that as I showed
previously we have also concluded that it should continue to be impossible
to export a package for compilation/linkage without public reflection, as we
have not discovered any use for such a mode).

More generally:

• The syntax for all of the above has no particular constraint (in fact I
will try to actively avoid touching what could be a very bikeshedding-rich
discussion), except that it should not be construable as being pejorative
against the usage of reflective frameworks; rather, it should be clear what
level of trust is being established without raising undue warning.
• Applications should not need gratuitous amounts of declarations in their
module(s) in order to utilize frameworks.
• As previously established, it should not be possible for one declaration
to reduce the scope of access of another declaration in a module definition.
• Access to a module (for reflective purposes only) must not cause conflicts
if multiple such modules which contain identical packages are accessible to
a single consumer; in other words, reflection-only access into
non-dependency modules is not bound by duplicate package restrictions as
long as each package is unique per class loader, as per the current (Java 8)
class loader rules.

The above cover the useful access modes that we have identified.  This is
_nearly_ adequate to cover the use cases that we are currently concerned
about; for example, I could export all packages for public reflection only
to a specific framework, if only I know the module name of the
implementation.

Unfortunately, this does not work well in the case where a module may
consume a framework whose specification is separate from the implementation.
An application module may need to use (say) EJB and JPA; there is presently
no clean way to do so without either (a) relying on a container environment
to rewrite the descriptor or (b) opening up the module and defeating the
security mechanism (e.g. "weak").  Without either of these workarounds, the
application developer must have a good deal of knowledge about what modules
provide what services within a framework-rich environment, possibly
resulting in a very verbose (and error-prone) descriptor; none of these
options is really satisfactory.

Thus, apart from the option of redesigning (to an extent) the security
mechanism (thereby eliminating the need to seal off access to public
reflection, which is definitely still an attractive option for various
reasons from our perspective, but which is also a very different
discussion), we need some sort of mechanism which decouples the literal
dependency system from access permission (much like uses/provides does).

For example if I could declare that my module uses "javax.ejb", and, in so
doing, automatically grants public and private reflective access to the
module that provides that service, this would be a good outcome.  A module
which answers to that service name could be responsible for reflective
access to the application module, providing that information privately to
any other framework modules which require it.

The migration story looks much better in this light: module descriptors
still can be quite terse and specific.  Applications which use reflective
frameworks do not need gratuitous exports; in fact it's much more fluid for
a user to say "I require these helper libraries; I use EJB; that's it" which
means they don't have to worry about the details of whatever particular
environment they run in.  This also has the advantage of allowing new Java
9-generation specifications to stipulate standard service names for each
specification (e.g. "javax.ejb", "javax.cdi", that sort of thing).

While this doesn't cover 100% of our remaining issues with Jigsaw (of
course; we'll all continue moving through the issues list as we have been to
get us there), meeting these requirements would go a long way towards at
least having a reflection story that is more practical for present-day
frameworks to move forward with.  So the last requirement would be:

• A module definition must be able to establish that an "indirect"
dependency exists on an otherwise unknown module providing a capability,
wherein that module may require public or public+private reflection access
to some or all packages without compile/link access.  This could possibly
exist in conjunction with, or as an evolution of, the current services
mechanism, however a complicating factor is that the current mechanism is
based specifically on types, whereas a purely symbolic relationship might be
better for this purpose (this is not a requirement though if it can be made
to work as-is).  Note that any symbolic relationship system would need some
in-code discovery mechanism such that consumers of the capability are made
available to the provider and/or vice-versa, in order to make practical use
of the relationship.

The following example syntax is meant to be unambiguous and illustrative; no
specific attempt is made to reuse existing keywords (for example), or even
to imply an endorsement of the current descriptor mechanism at all, but to
clarify how this might look in practice and provide a practical application
of the ideas herein.

Example 1: A contrived provider of the fictional framework
"javax.fictional.orm" illustrating provides/uses-based access granting

module org.foo.orm.provider {

      // Require a module dependency, and give it private reflection access
to everything
      requires org.apache.commons.beanutils with private reflection on *;

      // Require a module dependency with no reflection
      requires org.apache.commons.logging;

      // Provide the framework
      provides javax.fictional.orm.ORM
          using private reflection
          with org.foo.orm.provider.ORMImpl1,
               org.foo.orm.provider.ORMImpl2;
}

Example 2: A contrived consumer of #1

module com.mycompany.application {
      uses javax.fictional.orm.ORM; // automatically gives private
reflection
}

Example 3: Grant reflection access to a couple of packages to a named
non-dependency module

module com.mycompany.application {
      grant public reflection on
          com.mycompay.application.package1,
          com.mycompay.application.package2
      to org.foo.framework;
}

Example 4: Behave like Java 8

module com.mycompany.application {
      grant private reflection on * to *;
}

Example 5: Behave like Java 8, but restrict private access without requiring
a security manager

module com.mycompany.application {
      grant public reflection on * to *;
}

Example 6: An example of using CDI and EJB with symbolic capabilities

module com.mycompany.application {
      uses capability javax.ejb, javax.cdi
}

Example 7: An example of providing EJB with symbolic capabilities

module org.foo.ejb.provider {
      [...]
      provides capability javax.ejb using private reflection;
}


--
- DML

--
- DML

Reply via email to