Like I just said, it's a lazy late August day and you're all waiting for "that tech guy" their clients want for the trading systems to show up... :)
Somehow, Shahan, I don't really think the other 10,000 or so working programmers in NYC care if "that tech guy" and his 300K compensation get outsourced or not...? All we want is for our skills to be valued appropriately in the marketplace, and for our hard work to be appreciated. Because we objected to our skills being valued at $8/hr, you felt compelled to email us and tell us we have a "victim mentality" and I'm quite frankly not sure why. Kristina > > I have had several people contact me and I will say here what I said to them. The 300K package type jobs are not PHP positions. They are C++/Java/C# positions involved with developing trading systems. My point was to illustrate many high paying jobs are sitting unfilled here in NYC simply because there is not enough people to fill them. These jobs are not being outsourced. As a recruiter I suffer as much as anyone when something is outsourced to India..however everytime gets outsourced it seems another skill set is needed here and only. > > Below is the relevant excerpt from an article that just appeared in the New York Times regarding the programmer who was caught stealing from Goldman.... This guy would be a typical example of what we deal with. (Hence 300K package is viewed with a yawn). > > Mr. Aleynikov immigrated to the United States from Russia in 1991. In 1998, he joined IDT a telecommunications company, where he wrote software to route calls and data more efficiently. In 2007, Goldman hired him as a vice president, paying him $400,000 a year, according to the federal complaint against him..... This spring, Mr. Aleynikov quit Goldman to join Teza Technologies, a new trading firm, tripling his salary to about $1.2 million, according to the complaint. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/24/business/24trading.html? _r=1&scp=1&sq=Goldman%20Sachs%20and%20programmer&st=cse > As for Drupal/Php developers..it is absolute true. Like ANY skill set, your going to find people all over the range. I spoke to enough of them where people commanding that kind of rate is not an aberration. > As for you Rob, you can continue to believe in whatever you would like, amazing at how sure you are of yourself. > SA > > > > From: Web [mailto:webmies...@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 2:24 PM > To: Shahan Avedian; Chauncey Thorn; Kristina D. H. Anderson > Cc: jobs@lists.nyphp.org > Subject: Re: [nyphp-jobs] looking for medium size projects > > Shahan, > > For some reason I just don't believe you. Sorry. Your email is nonsense. > > > Rob > > > > From: Shahan Avedian<mailto:saved...@starpoint.com> > Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 9:51 AM > To: Chauncey Thorn<mailto:chaunc...@gmail.com> ; Kristina D. H. Anderson<mailto:k...@kacomputerconsulting.com> > Cc: jobs@lists.nyphp.org<mailto:jobs@lists.nyphp.org> > Subject: Re: [nyphp-jobs] looking for medium size projects > > I am a technical recuriter based out of the NYC area. I can tell you right now I have jobs paying 150k with 300K total package that we cannot find people for right in Manhattan. The one's that are qualified are all working and won't consider it. I speak to consultants all the time who will not get off the sofa unless they get 95.00 per hour. ( Some would view 95.00 as a pay cut). It all comes down to skill set. For every job that is being offshored...there are other jobs cannot be offshored nor is there any intention of being offshored. > > Just recently I was looking for Strong PHP/Drupal developer...cannot tell you how many people I spoke who just wouldn't consider a job unless they got paid $100.00 per hour. Offshoring is hear to stay...its not just in the computer programming world. If companies can get the same thing done at a cheaper rate its going to go abroad. If they need a real heavy hitter its going to stay here. The sooner people stop viewing themselves as victims and focus on what you have control over the quicker you will solve your problems. I can tell you first hand there are whole classes of programmers who don't share these views. > > SA > > From: jobs-boun...@lists.nyphp.org [mailto:jobs- boun...@lists.nyphp.org] On Behalf Of Chauncey Thorn > Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 7:46 PM > To: Kristina D. H. Anderson > Cc: jobs@lists.nyphp.org > Subject: Re: [nyphp-jobs] looking for medium size projects > > I'm not sure a Union would solve the problem. I've been exposed to a number of Union workers and they become very complacent knowing that they going to be making the same regardless. I feel this could de-value the profession. > > CT > On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 7:02 PM, Kristina D. H. Anderson <k...@kacomputerconsulting.com<mailto:k...@kacomputerconsulting.com>> wrote: > I for one am grateful to see the passionate opinions being voiced > here. In an industry where so much is expected of us in terms of > knowledge and commitment, and which has been subjected like no other > profession to the forces of "globalization" (i.e. wage reduction), we > do need to consider, really, how offensive it truly is that anyone > feels our work is worth "minimum wage". > > And we are subjected to insulting stereotypes which hold that "computer > geeks" enjoy their work too much to care about what they get paid, or > that all we need are some old T-shirts and some cold pizza and we are > good to go...and how much can that cost? Please, programmers are not > all the same, and some even have families they need to support, or > possibly even other goals besides spending the rest of their lives > toiling over a hot text editor for practically no money...*GASP*. > > This all comes back to the issue that I feel is at the core of > things...the lack of licensing or credentialling organizations in our > field that would perform the core functions that they do in other > industries...namely to maintain a certain exclusivity of talent and to > fight against economic pressures seeking to dampen wage or salary rates > in our industry. Or a programmer's union that could mandate that the > MINIMUM hourly rate for any union programmer is $40 or $50 or whatever > they decide on...and make it hard on companies that don't use union > programmers...or whatever the solution might be. > > I feel that attempting to take work away from NYC programmers by > undercutting our billing rates to the tune of 8 DOLLARS AN HOUR should > be explicitly prohibited on this list, because it IS offensive, and > even potentially harmful. > > Happy coding everyone, > > Kristina > > > > > > > Folks, > > > > I was not trying to be rude or disrespectful to the person who posted > the > > advertisement. I monitor the list for Jobs in NYC to see what > employers are > > looking for. Seeing someone posting an Ad for what is .75 above > minimum wage > > here. I have ZERO desire to compete with those prices regardless of > the > > state of the application after developed. > > > > I've been developing PHP application for over 7 year and my base > price is 8 > > times the lowest they would take to develop an application. I'm sure > there > > are other PHP developer here in NYC that are in the same boat. Why > would we > > want those types of Ads. > > > > I'm sure there are some skilled PHP developers in India that are > willing to > > write applications for 8-15 USD. But no skilled PHP developer in the > NY is > > going to work for those prices and I spoke up to halt the competition. > > Nothing personal (and I mean that) > > > > To be honest I didn't really have a problem with the Ad but when it > said 8 - > > 15 USD. I couldn't let it slide. > > When it comes to "*jobs*" I only care if PHP recruiters and/or > developers in > > NYC benefit from this list and that message didn't benefit anyone in > NYC. > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Paul A Houle <p...@devonianfarm.com<mailto:p...@devonianfarm.com>> > wrote: > > > > > Web wrote: > > > > > >> I would share this with my friends but I don't have any friends in > India. > > >> Nor do I get work from India. > > >> That's why I'm on this NEW YORK PHP list. For New York PHP > jobs. NEW > > >> YORK! > > >> Start your own IndiaPHP list. > > >> Thank you, > > >> > > >> > > > People in India don't get work from India. A big drop in the > dollar > > > would be good because it would bring jobs back to the US and > encourage other > > > countries to develop balanced local markets in goods and services. > > > > > > There are some world-class organizations in India, and there are > a lot > > > of smaller ones that aren't so good. Overall, India tends to > underprice > > > software development work (and other white collar) done in the US > by about > > > 2/3. In the better cases, you're paying for more people and for > people to > > > manage the extra people, and get good results. In the worst > cases, you > > > just get ripped. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs > > > > > > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online > > > http://www.nyphpcon.com > > > > > > Show Your Participation in New York PHP > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Chauncey Thorn > > PHP Developer/Systems Administrator > > email: chaunc...@gmail.com<mailto:chaunc...@gmail.com> > > url: http://www.cthorn.com/ > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs > > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online > http://www.nyphpcon.com > > Show Your Participation in New York PHP > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php > > > > -- > Chauncey Thorn > PHP Developer/Systems Administrator > email: chaunc...@gmail.com<mailto:chaunc...@gmail.com> > url: http://www.cthorn.com/ > > ________________________________ > Since 1982, Starpoint Solutions has been a trusted source of human capital and solutions. We are committed to our clients, employees, environment, community and social concerns. We foster an inclusive culture based on trust, respect, honesty and solid performance. Learn more about Starpoint and our social responsibility at http://www.starpoint.com/social_responsibility > ________________________________ > This email message from Starpoint Solutions LLC is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of Starpoint Solutions shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by it. > ________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs > > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online > http://www.nyphpcon.com > > Show Your Participation in New York PHP > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php > > ________________________________ > Since 1982, Starpoint Solutions has been a trusted source of human capital and solutions. We are committed to our clients, employees, environment, community and social concerns. We foster an inclusive culture based on trust, respect, honesty and solid performance. Learn more about Starpoint and our social responsibility at http://www.starpoint.com/social_responsibility > > ________________________________ > This email message from Starpoint Solutions LLC is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of Starpoint Solutions shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by it. > > _______________________________________________ New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online http://www.nyphpcon.com Show Your Participation in New York PHP http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
