First, a caveat: I am not a poet and don't play one on TV. I don't even read much poetry. But, regarding whether Joni's lyrics are poetry or not, I think that the suggestion that they are not poetry because they are not "condensed" or "stripped down" overlooks the majority of what we call poetry. Certainly there is poetry, particularly modern poetry, that is very spare in use of words. However, just because it is not a haiku does not make it less than poetry.
Compare which is spare, more condensed?: Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary, Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore- While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping, As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door. "'Tis some visitor," I muttered, "tapping at my chamber door- Only this, and nothing more." [ Poe] "The big man arrives Disco dancers greet him Plainclothes cops greet him Small town, big man, fresh lipstick glistening Sophomore jive >From victims of typewriters The band sounds like typewriters The big man he's not listening His eyes hold Edith His left hand holds his right What does that hand desire That he grips it so tight" [JM] LET us go then, you and I, When the evening is spread out against the sky Like a patient etherised upon a table; Let us go, through certain half-deserted streets, The muttering retreats Of restless nights in one-night cheap hotels And sawdust restaurants with oyster-shells: Streets that follow like a tedious argument Of insidious intent To lead you to an overwhelming question... Oh, do not ask, "What is it?" Let us go and make our visit. [TS Eliot] A wristwatch, a ring, a downstairs screamer Edgy-black cracks of the sky "Pin cushion prick fix this poor bad dreamer" "Money" cold shadows reply Pawnshops crisscrossed and padlocked Corridors spit on prayers and pleas Sparks fly up from sweet fire Black soot of lady release [JM] I would hunt down examples of lyrics that are not, to my mind, quality poetry, but that would be too easy. My conclusion is that the only reason Joni's lyrics are not considered poetry is that they are not usually sold that way. In fact, the shocking thing is that lyrics are so readily available on the net while "modern" poetry is not. I tried to find Quincy Troupe's "poem for Magic Johnson" as a great example of modern poetry but you can't find it published on the web. It makes sense that you can't because otherwise you wouldn't buy it in the stores. But all of JM'd lyrics are there for the copying and reading. (As an intellectual property attorney, I am baffled by this) And it is beautiful stuff. Ron in LA ----- Original Message ----- From: "johnirving" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 3:55 PM Subject: Is Joni a poet? Nay. > I treasure Joni as much as any human being, but the best I would say > regarding Joni is that her music is Art, and the words are deeply > poetic, but it's not quite poetry. And not being poetry removes her from > being a poet. > > I would define poetry as a literary art form of condensation. It is an > intellectual play of words to get at the deepest possible expression of > thought and feeling by a deep understanding and consentration of word > play. Many of her songs are much like this, but not to the nth degree > that the form of Poetry, as we know it, would occur. She would have to > do more 'stripping', more condensing and more word play with the written > line to enter the true realm of poetry: > > spirit friend > sage's eyes > sanity > sanity contemplating crying > > I think it's that border that Joni finds offensive, at least enough that > she's often spoken of her dislike of poetry. It's too much of an > intellectual game. Only half the crowd 'get's it.' And the mental game > strips away some of the power of the thing to communicate and affect the > emotions of the reader. Well, save the great poets like Elisabeth Bishop > and the like. > > Another way to look at is cooking. Sugar and water are as to caramel as > Morning Morgantown is to Poetry, big P. They both have the same > ingredients, but you have to do a certain thing to sugar and water > before it enters the catagory of being caramel. And a reduced stock is > nothing like Stock. > > But the fact that Joni is not a poet doesn't make her work any less > Poetic or Art. --I am blown away that this tiny little woman (5'7, maybe > 110 lbs.) can produce such spectacular vision! Travelogue has been like > a visual jewel for me. I see Caravaggio brushwork, deep dark darks and > brilliant cries for light in Sire of Sorrow. This is some of the richest > arrangements I've ever heard. My hat's off to everyone involved, > especially Mendoza. The only minute flaw to T'log is the lack of credits > and commentary regarding the performers in the printed word. The > arranger, band, orchestra and studio crew joined hands with Joni and > produced one of the finest recordings ever made, I think. This is > special stuff. > > So special that I think Joni will be lifted to a new place as well. If > she does produce new material, "WATCH OUT!" It's going to have a sound > totally new and all it's own. Even if it's just a spare voice, guitar > and drums. Her ability to emote the line, play with the melodic flow and > rhythm of it are light years improved over anything she's done before. > I'm sure she's out to take full advantage of that in any new work. And I > think Mendosa and the orchestra have helped open up that fresh new place > for her as a singer. You can tell she's responding to the excitement of > the aural sounds around her. She's using her voice as a jazz instrument > against the band. It's gorgeous stuff. > > I love how she cuts loose with "Where is hope?" > !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > You can feel the sense of desperation there that we all felt Sept. 11th > 2001. She is the queen of beauty hands down. > > Not Poetry. -Better.
