Hi Jim!
> Welcome back!
Thanks. It's good to be back, good to have some time
again to participate in this (still) liveliest and
best of forums.
At the end of your post, you wrote:
> I hope this is not a dangerous place to discuss
> issues dear to JMDLers. Let me turn the tables on
> you, if I may, Lori. Why do you feel threatened
> here?
First, I don't think this is a "dangerous" place to
discuss things, per se. In fact, this list is
probably "safer" and more open-minded than most
"music" discussion lists. (Of course you have to take
into account that Joni is the reason we came together
and Joni's fans are extraordinarly intellectual, IMO.)
Sometimes list members feel threatened, but this is
just a communications medium, and an imperfect one at
that. If you're offended by something you just read,
it's a good idea to take a breath and read the post
again ... and again ... and make sure you really
understand what the writer was trying to say.
Because we can't see expression or hear intonation,
things are sometimes misunderstood or taken too
seriously ... a recent example is Marcel's
tongue-in-cheek remark about the Dems needing
reproductive assistance, which made me chuckle enough
to write to Marcel and tell him so, even though I'm a
card-carrying, Gore-voting Democrat!
OTOH, there certainly have been times when there is no
doubt whatsoever that a writer is being arrogant or
snippy or (worse) hateful.
As a longtime JMDL member (3+ years) and an even
longer-time (not a word, but what the heck) emailer
and chat room participant (though I gave that up some
time ago), I've gone through and survived "internet
dependency" and all the attendant emotional
rollercoaster feelings one can imagine. And I've
learned this: if you really don't like what you're
reading, turn the damn thing off and walk away for
awhile. Don't let it ruin your day.
But I digress ...
To answer your question, I don't feel threatened here,
never have felt that way.
Not to be redundant but rather to show the flow,
here's what prompted my recent request:
Bob ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) asked:
> Besides politics, are there any other subjects we're
> not *supposed* to discuss?
In an ornery mood, I replied:
> At the risk of starting another flame war -- oh
hell,
> I just feel like rocking a boat today! -- *some* of
> us will agree that we are limited by *others* on the
> amount of time we can spend discussing *certain*
> issues.
>
> *We* know who *we* are!
What was on my mind when I wrote the above were the
times that some gay members on the list have felt that
their thread was quickly "shut down" by because it was
"too gay." I don't believe anyone is really asking
that we have a lengthy discussion about the
nitty-gritty details of gay sex -- or str8 sex, for
that matter -- but it DOES seem that gay topics have
been squashed sometimes, politely or not.
Meanwhile, we discuss everything else about our lives
at length and sometimes to the point of ridiculous.
Str8 list members can and do write about their life
partners, about whether they�ve ever done the goat
dance (and since most of us know what that means, it�s
a fairly graphic mental image!), about every personal
and political detail of their lives. Their grammar
and punctuation may be picked apart, but they rarely
experience TSD (thread shut down).
Anyway, I got a little feedback on my comment (mostly
via personal email), and then you added, in part,
this:
> On the other hand, there have been some very open
> discussions of sexuality this year including new
> phrases (to me) like "Bear fodder" and offers of a
> lady's uhm... affections for rent. No one
> objected. No one.
I've gotta admit I have no idea what "Bear fodder" is,
and now that I consider it, it certainly *sounds* gay!
Anyway, I couldn't resist responding to your comment
with:
> Admittedly, I've neglected reading quite a few
> digests this year, so I'm a little out of touch.
> Can you please point me to the period(s) of time or
> the digest(s) where a very open discussion of
> HOMOsexuality took place?
Jim, you may not have intended to appear to avoid
answering my question (which was really sort of
rhetorical, if you want to know the truth), but you
didn't really give me a straight answer (no pun
intended) when you wrote:
> Well, gay marriage came up several times. I'm NOT
> saying it came up too often. I'm not flaming you,
> Lori. I'm just saying that the List reflects
> the interests of its members, who are, after all,
> unmoderated. Certianly gay issues came up more
> often than, say, the AIDS epidemic in Africa, the
> double edge in-fighting on the West Bank, or global
> warming, or even the Olympic Games. There are lots
> of gay and lesbian folks (and some who've crossed
> between the gay world and the straight one) and
> everyone discusses whatever they please, as it was
> intended.
Jim honey ... talking about gay marriage is NOT the
same as having a very open discussion about
homosexuality!
Again, I'm not saying we should discuss the finer
points of fellatio or rimming (goddess knows "I" don't
want to read about it!), but there is no way that
"everyone discusses whatever they please." Maybe
that�s just as well, but here�s the thing:
Just like anyone, we gay and lesbian people want to
talk about our lives. About ALL the parts of our
lives. Because we are a minority and because we are
usually the most vilified of all minorities, we find
ourselves fighting all the time, everywhere, just for
the right to be who we are, to love who we love -- and
to be accepted as is. Flaming queen or papa bear or
diesel dyke or high-maintenance femme or -- egads! --
Log Cabin Republican, we find our lives to be the
essence of the statement, "the personal is the
political."
For a gay person (or for any good and intelligent
person, for that matter), to find an oasis of open
minds such as the JMDL is such an absolute joy. To
learn that there is even one narrow mind in this
ultimate "land of Joni" is an absolute disappointment.
Regardless of topic, to EVER be told to shut up or
take it elsewhere by another list member is a slap in
the face. Afterall, this is an unmoderated, "Blue
Ribbon" discussion list. And we do a pretty darn good
job of policing ourselves. No one need act the
"heavy."
> As I see it, it's not like JMDL had lots of child-
> bearing threads this past year either. It's not
> like I've seen hetrosexuality jammed down anyone's
> throat or even discussed that much. It's a warmer,
> fuzzy experience than that. More asexual and
> apolitical.
I'll agree that most of the time it's warm and fuzzy
here. Asexual and apolitical, though? Hardly.
As far as heterosexuality being discussed, it's pretty
much discussed constantly in one way or another. You
just don't realize it because it's all around us, all
the time.
I'm blathering. Sorry to have gone on for so long ...
believe me, it feels even longer from where I'm
sitting!
Again, I don't feel threatened here. This is a lovely
place to "be." But I will always stick my neck out
for those who find themselves under fire, and I will
continue to occasionally ask those pesky questions
that make you squirm. It's just the kind of gal I am!
: )
Peace to all,
Lori
near DC
(Hey Roberto, so much for my attempts at brevity!)
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