Hi RR,
Thanks for the considered reply. I enjoyed the feedback. Here's a few of
my own...
--There's never been anything wrong with her pitch; and I scratch
my head that her reduced ability to physically sing is anything but
a liability. If greater experience in her life gives her a greater
feeling
and expressiveness-wouldn't it be even better if her voice were in
better shape?
Randy, it's my turn to disagree on this one. Her initial renditions of
the Mingus material reveal a good pop singer over her head with the
complex subtleties of jazz performance. For instance, I don't recall the
which tree disk it's on, but Joni's early "live" performance of the
Mingus songs is woefully out of pitch and rhythm. She improved on the
studio recording, but her pitch is still off in spots and the sparkle
and subtleties of Jazz performance just aren't there. It's not bad
singing. But definitely not Sarah Vaughn, Ella Fitzgerald league stuff.
To further strength my argument, I go to Joni and Herbie Hancock. Joni
has written ( her quotes are on the jmdl site) that singing Mingus's
songs have made her a better singer. Jump years ahead to Joni recording
for Herbie Hancock's cd... In the studio, he looks at her in amazement
and asks, "Where did you get that voice???!!!!" (You can really tell in
her voice she loves repeating this event. She's obviously proud.)
Now if Joni Mitchell and Herbie Hancock can see growth in her as a
singer... -if you can't trust their ears, who CAN you trust???
Joni's rendition of The Man I Love is jazz vocalizing at it's highest
level.
--I saw her during the BSN tour at Concord CA. (And at least
5 different times over the years since '72). The thing about a
live show is that there is excitement, there is affection for the
performer, there is a suspension (hopefully, if you are there to
enjoy yourself) of critical thought. I had a great time, enjoyed the
music, etc. Later, a jmdler was kind enough to make me a copy
of her Camden, NJ show. Ouch - IMO the singing is not too good.
I wonder if the show I saw and completely enjoyed sounded
similar. I suspect it did.
I saw the BSN show in Chicago. There were definite problems with sound
levels and the acoustics as well. Some of it also has to do with where
in the auditorium you are sitting. The sound was BAD during the first 2
songs, but it improved as the set went on. It wasn't as though she
started off bad and improved. My first Joni concert was the Shadows and
Light tour. The very first thing that come out of my mouth was
"WOOOOOW!!" in regard to her voice. I guess it was listening to my cheap
stereo equipment that hid her voice... I was floored by how beautiful
and clear her voice and pitch were. Proof again that Joni's pitch
improved: compare the opening notes of Dry Cleaner on the S&L tour to
her first live Mingus performance. I rest my case on that one...
Celine Dion or whoever's creativity or lack of it has nothing to
do with Joni's ability to sing. They're two different things.
Totally agree with that statement. My point was more in frustration to
those griping about Joni's lost voice. If her singing isn't up to snuff,
I recommend listening to someone with a prettier, smoke free voice
rather than griping about it. Her voice isn't going to improve in this
regard. So the choice is learn to enjoy it, or enjoy something else.
There's a slew of singers 'out' there with prettier "awwks" (as Joni
put's it), but the trade off of not listening to Joni Mitchell is...
you're not listening to Joni Mitchell: music less creative (IMO), less
inventive (IMO), less personal, poetic and engaging. (IMO).
Again, I have a problem with this...yes, time marches on, we grow
old...but there are certainly things you can to do accelerate aging,
or fend it off.
Which is why I made the comment about not surenduring. It's not that we
should roll over on the ground and wait for the relatives to push dirt
over our bodies just because we're aging. Eating well, exercising,
making art, valuing ourselves and others are a part of living, not a
part of fighting off aging. These things have more value if they are
done as a celebration of, and taking advantage of being alive in the
world. Which keeps happening until someone declares you dead. It
shouldn't be done solely to 'combat' aging. Aging is going to happen
because it happens. How we live in the meanwhile determines the quality
of our lives. Live for quality.
> She is not making products for consumers.
Yes, she is.
Well, obviously product is involved when you press 200,000 gazillion
copies of the darned thing. My point is more of a distinction rather
than a complete separation. I believe there is a higher, more artistic
motivation to Joni's efforts than merely making product. In a sense, the
only way she knows how to "make a product" is to make ART first and sell
it as a product. It's the difference between record producers shoving
the latest hot sound, riff, drums etc. etc. into a recording because
it's perceived as "hot" than a truely commited musican struggling with
their muse to create a form that is new, vital and responsive to their
life and life perspective, taking risks.
Of all the recordings she has done, (which may hint to Bob Muller's
dissatisfaction with BSN), BSN is probably the most "product" like of
any of her recordings. Essentially, it's about Joni trying to live again
in the moment of a night singing at a benefit with a large orchestra
behind her. She tried to pull it into an "artful" level by using a story
cycle, by revisiting her old material in a new way. For many on the
list, that was not enough and BSN comes off more as 'product' than art.
While this may be the case with BSN, it is definitely NOT the case with
any of her other original productions. Her music generally stand outside
the trends around her because she is working from a different vein of
creativity. She seeks situations, essentially by way of open tunings,
where new solutions, new harmonies, original material will rise up. Her
poetry is driven from her life experience, not catering to the whims of
trying to please the masses with something comforting.
I know saying 'she's not making product' isn't quite getting at what I
mean, but I think my rambling here is getting my point across. I think,
I hope...
--But "My Joni, right or wrong" makes about as much sense to me
as "My country, right or wrong".
I was afraid my ranting would be perceived as "Joni, right or wrong."
-Far from it. It was as clear to me as it was to Rich when Joni lost her
voice and hits that false note. I'm well aware of her faults. I almost
thought of posting some of them the other night. Including:
Her voice is too weary sometimes.
Her videos suck eggs.
Her rhythm is weird. (Fred Walecki described the more technical
expression for her style in this regard... but I forget.)
The tempo of BSN is too, too slow.
No Apologies is disjointed.
She writes crappy 'throw away pop'.
I guess it's the voice stuff that gets my hair going. To me it's like
complaining, "The sky is too blue." --Well, so... whaddaya gonna do???
Hmmm. Yep. Too blue. Right. Well... so...
--the important thing is that she
has remained creative and restless.
Let's hope so. I will need do so some product consuming when I'm 90!!!
Come on Joni! --You go, girl!
john.
