Would it be too confusing to ask for a sat "signed at" field for the header? In 
my application this makes more sense (with the multiple signatures 
serialization specification jws-js) than a payload time stamp.

Daniel Holth

On Oct 4, 2012, at 8:15 PM, Mike Jones <[email protected]> wrote:

> As editor, I’m going to make the observation this is the one poll question 
> where the results are not clear enough for it to be obvious what I should do. 
>  There were many people who made comments about the question being unclear 
> and the intended use and meaning of the potential field or fields unclear.
>  
> Unless you feel differently, Karen and Jim, I believe that the best course at 
> this point is for me to add nothing to the specs as a result of this poll 
> question, but for the working group to try to make decisions on much less 
> ambiguous proposals (should any be made) than the one in the poll question.
>  
>                                                             -- Mike
>  
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jim 
> Schaad
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 8:38 PM
> To: 'Dick Hardt'; [email protected]
> Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [jose] DISCUSS: Nonce/Timestamp parameter
>  
> The question from my point of view is that common fields from many structures 
> should potentially be supported in the base specification so that they can be 
> common rather than having each structure define them separately.  This is 
> only an issue if one wishes them to be placed in the header structure and not 
> in the data structure. 
>  
> If one is looking at signing an unstructured data object – such as a file – 
> then it becomes difficult to have the fields such as a time that it was 
> signed be part of the file itself, especially if one is applying multiple 
> signatures at different times.  This is not an issue for the token 
> specification but could be for other uses of the signature or encryption 
> specifications.
>  
> I would agree that “iat” is a timestamp for the purposes of this 
> conversation.  If one wanted a formalized timestamp from a third party 
> authority then a totally different way of going about it would be required.  
> I chose the term nonce or timestamp because both had been discussed in the 
> past without any specific resolution about what is needed.
>  
> Jim
>  
>  
> From: Dick Hardt [mailto:[email protected]] 
> Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 2:55 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; 
> [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [jose] DISCUSS: Nonce/Timestamp parameter
>  
> I was considering "iat" to be the timestamp. I was not thinking there would 
> be an additional timestamp.
>  
> On Aug 27, 2012, at 2:13 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
>  
> 
> We have exp
>                 
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-oauth-json-web-token-03#section-4.1.1
> and iat
>                 
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-oauth-json-web-token-03#section-4.1.3
> in JWT. Why do we need a timestamp?
>  
> Replay attacks of the same jwt can be mitigated through the jti claim
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-oauth-json-web-token-03#section-4.1.7
>  
> What do timestamp and nonce add to these?
>  
> Axel
>  
>  
>  
> From: Dick Hardt [mailto:[email protected]] 
> Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 10:23 PM
> To: Brian Eaton
> Cc: Nennker, Axel; Jim Schaad; [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [jose] DISCUSS: Nonce/Timestamp parameter
>  
>  
> On Aug 27, 2012, at 1:06 PM, Brian Eaton wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 12:11 PM, Dick Hardt <[email protected]> wrote:
> I have an application for JWT that is not OAuth2.
>  
> Should nonce and timestamp logic go in the application level protocol?
>  
> I prefer to NOT have the application level deal with token validity.
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Having said that, nonce's are difficult to implement at scale and I have 
> heard of many sites that don't implement them fully.
>  
> Nonce alone can't be implemented efficiently.  You have to have time stamps 
> as well, otherwise you are stuck storing ever nonce you've ever seen, forever.
>  
> Even nonce + time stamp is challenging in distributed systems.  It adds a lot 
> of complexity.  That complexity is sometimes merited, but not always.
>  
> Thanks for confirming my statement.
>  
> I have stopped using nonce and only use time stamps lately and have made the 
> system relatively stateless so that a second submission of the token is ok. 
> That may not work for everyone, but I have found that architecture to be 
> easier to implement and scale.
>  
> _______________________________________________
> jose mailing list
> [email protected]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/jose
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