I prefer Jame’s proposal as well.

 — Justin

> On Dec 17, 2015, at 12:19 PM, Matt Miller (mamille2) <[email protected]> 
> wrote:
> 
> I prefer James' proposed text.  I believe this draft came about primarily 
> because there are use cases where the content to sign is large enough that 
> the burden of base64url encoding is too great.  By that measure, I'm not sure 
> how worthwhile size-of-header arguments are, as content so large that 
> base64url might be prohibitive would dwarf the concerns around header size.  
> I think the risk of bad verifies outweighs the reduced-headher-size benefits.
> 
> 
> --
> - m&m
> 
> Matt Miller
> Cisco Systems, Inc.
> 
>> On Dec 17, 2015, at 08:39, Kathleen Moriarty 
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> 
>> On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 9:32 AM, John Bradley <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Sorry I just recounted, it is a extra 20 bytes per message with the encoded 
>>> header and not 6.
>>> 
>>> That is a bit more but probably not worth dying over.   I still prefer the 
>>> smaller option.
>> 
>> If we could get to a consensus on this and which text is preferred,
>> that would be helpful.
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> Kathleen
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> John B.
>>> 
>>>> On Dec 17, 2015, at 3:04 PM, John Bradley <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I prefer making crit only required if the producer is not certain that all 
>>>> potential recipients understand/the extension.
>>>> 
>>>> However it would not be the end of the world for me from a size 
>>>> perspective if crit was always required.  Trading 6 octets for saving 1/4 
>>>> of the body size is not a bad trade off.
>>>> 
>>>> The issue for me is more always requiring something to be sent that is 
>>>> known to not be used.
>>>> 
>>>> So I am on the not forcing crit side but could live with the consensus if 
>>>> it goes the other way.
>>>> 
>>>> John B.
>>>> 
>>>>> On Dec 17, 2015, at 2:48 PM, Stephen Farrell <[email protected]> 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Great. For completeness, the alternative proposed by James Manger
>>>>> (which I'd also prefer) was:
>>>>> 
>>>>> The "crit" Header Parameter MUST be included with "b64" in its set
>>>>> of values to ensure the JWS is rejected (instead of being
>>>>> misinterpreted) by implementations that do not understand this
>>>>> specification.
>>>>> 
>>>>> My discuss then is asking if, after all this discussion, the WG
>>>>> prefer the above or that below. I'll take the WG chairs word on what
>>>>> they conclude as the outcome.
>>>>> 
>>>>> S.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 17/12/15 13:44, Mike Jones wrote:
>>>>>> Sure, I'm obviously fine asking the working group what they think of the 
>>>>>> new text.  Working group - this new text at 
>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-jose-jws-signing-input-options-08#section-6
>>>>>>  is:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 6.  Using "crit" with "b64"
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If a JWS using "b64" with a value of "false" might be processed by
>>>>>> implementations not implementing this extension, then the "crit"
>>>>>> Header Parameter MUST be included with "b64" in its set of values to
>>>>>> cause such implementations to reject the JWS.  Conversely, if used in
>>>>>> environments in which all participants implement this extension, then
>>>>>> "crit" need not be included, since its inclusion would have no
>>>>>> effect, other than increasing the JWS size and processing costs.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>                          Thanks all,
>>>>>>                          -- Mike
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:[email protected]]
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2015 2:32 PM
>>>>>>> To: Mike Jones <[email protected]>; The IESG <[email protected]>
>>>>>>> Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]; 
>>>>>>> draft-ietf-jose-jws-signing-
>>>>>>> [email protected]; [email protected]
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Stephen Farrell's Discuss on 
>>>>>>> draft-ietf-jose-jws-signing-input-
>>>>>>> options-08: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hiya,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 17/12/15 13:20, Mike Jones wrote:
>>>>>>>> Thanks for your review, Stephen.  Replies inline below...
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Farrell
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, December 17,
>>>>>>>>> 2015 12:20 PM To: The IESG <[email protected]> Cc:
>>>>>>>>> [email protected]; Mike Jones
>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]>; Jim Schaad <[email protected]>;
>>>>>>>>> [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] Subject:
>>>>>>>>> Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-ietf-jose-jws-signing-input-
>>>>>>>>> options-08: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Stephen Farrell has entered the following ballot position for
>>>>>>>>> draft-ietf-jose-jws-signing-input-options-08: Discuss
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>>>>>>>>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut
>>>>>>>>> this introductory paragraph, however.)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Please refer to
>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more
>>>>>>>>> information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found
>>>>>>>>> here:
>>>>>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-jose-jws-signing-input-op
>>>>>>>>> tions/
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> DISCUSS:
>>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The "crit" point raised in the gen-art review and maybe elsewhere is I 
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>> correct but I don't think section 6 of -08 is a good resolution of
>>>>>>>>> this topic. However, I'll clear if this is the WG consensus but it's
>>>>>>>>> hard to know that's the case for text just added yesterday. To
>>>>>>>>> resolve this discuss we just need to see what the WG list says about
>>>>>>>>> the new text.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Jim's shepherd write-up at
>>>>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-jose-jws-signing-input-opt
>>>>>>>> ions/shepherdwriteup/ records the working group's desire to not
>>>>>>>> require the use of "crit"
>>>>>>>> when it isn't needed.  He wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> "(6)  The fact that there are two different versions of encoding that
>>>>>>>> produce the same text string for signing is worrisome to me.  The WG
>>>>>>>> had the ability to address this when producing the JWS specification
>>>>>>>> and decided not to do so that time.  In this document, the desire to
>>>>>>>> allow for things to be smaller has lead to the fact that the b64 and
>>>>>>>> crit headers can be omitted as being implicit.  This was the desire of
>>>>>>>> the WG, but I personally feel that it is the wrong decision."
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Fair enough, so the chair/shepherd, gen-art reviewer and seems like a 
>>>>>>> few
>>>>>>> IESG members all find the current position unconvincing as does the one
>>>>>>> implementer who posted to the WG list since the new text was added.
>>>>>>> Wouldn't you agree there's enough there to justify asking the WG once 
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>> what they think about that 13 byte overhead to prevent interop and maybe
>>>>>>> even security problems?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> COMMENT:
>>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> - abstract: the description of the update to 7519 is odd. It seems to 
>>>>>>> be saying
>>>>>>>>> "Here we define a thing. This specification updates 7519 to say you
>>>>>>>>> must not use this thing." but prohibiting is an odd verb to use
>>>>>>>>> there. (Since it wasn't previously there to be allowed or not.)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Would you like this text better?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> "This specification updates RFC 7519 by stating that JSON Web Tokens
>>>>>>>> (JWTs) MUST NOT use the unencoded payload option defined by this
>>>>>>>> specification."
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Better yep. Thanks.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Or do you think this spec doesn't need to have the "Updates 7519"
>>>>>>>> clause at all?  People seemed split on whether this was needed or not.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Happens all the time. Personally I mostly don't care about updates 
>>>>>>> which is
>>>>>>> the case this time too:-)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> - section 6: "It is intended that application profiles specify up
>>>>>>>>> front whether" "intended" is very wishy washy and "up front" makes no
>>>>>>>>> sense at all.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> How about this wording change? "It is intended that application
>>>>>>>> profiles specify up front whether" -> "Application profiles should
>>>>>>>> specify whether"
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Also better,
>>>>>>> Ta,
>>>>>>> S.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Thanks again, -- Mike
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> jose mailing list
>>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/jose
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> jose mailing list
>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/jose
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> Kathleen
> 
> _______________________________________________
> jose mailing list
> [email protected]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/jose

Attachment: signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail

_______________________________________________
jose mailing list
[email protected]
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/jose

Reply via email to