This is my ultimate goal:

- jsecurity.jar deployed with nothing else.  It works.
- jsecurity.jar deployed with slf4j-api.jar and a binding .jar.  It uses
SLF4J and still works.

So yes, the current substitution does not improve the situation of achieving
my goal because SLF4J is still a forced dependency.  Those in disagreement
with me believe that this is not a worthwhile goal given the maintenance it
might require on the development team.

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 2:47 PM, Craig L Russell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Mentor hat off. Architect hat on.
>
> I understand that the original goal was to remove the hard dependency on
> commons-logging from the jsecurity code.
>
> I don't understand how substituting a hard dependency on another logging
> framework improves the situation.
>
> Hats restored.
>
> Craig
>
>
> On Jul 15, 2008, at 2:29 PM, Emmanuel Lecharny wrote:
>
>  Niklas Gustavsson wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 4:13 PM, Jeremy Haile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>  So - all of this obfuscation, unnecessary abstraction, and additional
>>>> classes is so that:
>>>>
>>>> a) users who already use SLF4J are unaffected. (their experience is
>>>> neither
>>>> IMPROVED or made worse)
>>>> b) users who use commons-logging will be confused why JSecurity isn't
>>>> logging correctly (since it will silently log to JDK 4 logger instead of
>>>> failing due to the lack of an slf4j.jar)
>>>> c) users who use JDK 1.3 will be really confused because they will get
>>>> absolutely NO OUTPUT if they don't have slf4j in the classpath.
>>>> d) users who use log4j directly will be confused per (b) or (c) based on
>>>> whether or not they are running JDK 1.3 or JDK 1.4 and above
>>>>
>>>> My opinion is that it's better to force the user to include SLF4J.  That
>>>> way
>>>> you avoid all of these confusing situations, you keep the code simple,
>>>> you
>>>> use a logging framework OS developers are used to, and you avoid having
>>>> one
>>>> logging abstraction built on top of another.
>>>>
>>>> And no - writing things out to stdout or stderr will not address my
>>>> concerns.
>>>>
>>>> Still +1 for just using SLF4J.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Agreed, I think this is still over-designing out ways out of a non-issue.
>>>
>>> /niklas
>>>
>>>
>>>  +1.
>>
>> --
>> --
>> cordialement, regards,
>> Emmanuel Lécharny
>> www.iktek.com
>> directory.apache.org
>>
>>
>>
> Craig L Russell
> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
> 408 276-5638 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>
>

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