Sorry, I missed the bit about the Orion server on my first read through.
I haven't yet seen this server - thanks for the info!
That solves the chaining issues, but still has questionable flexibility...
--shawn
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph B. Ottinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: JSPs and XML.
> On Thu, 18 May 2000, Shawn McKisson wrote:
>
> Coimments are interspersed.
>
> > The problem with using JSP for generating XML is that the JSP wants to
> > assume that it is sitting at the top level of your application, i.e. it
> > wants to send the response back to the client.
>
> It does? Funny, I use JSP to generate XML all the time, and it goes
> through XSL on the server...
>
> > >From what I understand, your current architecture looks like this
> >
> > [db] <-----> [pl/sql] ---XML---> [XSL engine] --HTML via HTTP--->
[client]
> >
> > If we try to introduce JSP into this scenario we get
> >
> > [db] <-----> [pl/sql] ---data---> [JSP] ---XML via HTTP--> [client]
> >
> > There is no room after the JSP layer to perform the XSL transformation
> > JSP does not allow for post processing of it's output in order to
perform
> > the rendering. I believe this is because JSP is meant to be used in as
> > presentation generation language, not as a data mapping language. Sure,
you
> > could chain this to another servlet which contained your rendering code,
but
> > it is much cleaner to just have something like
> >
> > [db] <-----> [pl/sql] ---data---> [XML data mapping code] ---XML--> [XSL
> > engine] --XML/PDF/etc. via HTTP--> [client]
> >
> > It is the requirement that JSP respond to the client that limits its
> > usefulness in this context.
>
> Um, maybe you should switch to a better app server, one that allows
> chaining based on mime types. As stated, I use a design something like
> this:
>
> [db] --data--> [beans] --> jsp --XML+XSL--> HTML
>
> The XSL can be active content itself, so the HTML is variable (I just
> haven't used it for anything else.
>
> BTW, example content can be found at http://www.orionsupport.com/ - don't
> let the file extensions fool you, it's all JSP, XML, XSL.
>
> > --shawn
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Daniel Lopez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 1:32 AM
> > Subject: Re: JSPs and XML.
> >
> >
> > > Hi Shawn,
> > >
> > > We are doing something very similar, and we might as well use JSP
later
> > > down the road so I'll get you my own reasoning.
> > > Why? Because that way you have the data generated by your action
> > > completely independent of the way you present the data. So independent
> > > that you don't have to use Java to format this data or even produce
it.
> > > For example, right now we skipped the JSP part because we are
generating
> > > the XML directly from PL/SQL but if we have to add some operations
that
> > > will be done better in Java (handling files...) we just need to
produce
> > > XML from Java and use the same XSLT sheets as the PL/SQL operations.
Our
> > > grahical designer won't even know if we are performing the logic in
> > > PL/SQL or Java. And you might ask then why use JSP instead of
generating
> > > XML directly from servlets. Well, for the same reason we generate HTML
> > > through JSP instead of generating it directly from servlets, to make
the
> > > result independent of the classes that implement it, easier to produce
> > > without getting into the code...
> > > Another reason why one would want to generate XML from JSP would be to
> > > be able to forward this result to diferent XSLT and produce WML, HTML,
> > > ... using the same functionality but with diferent XSLT.
> > > I understand that one might think, why add such an overhead... Again,
> > > JSPs are supposed not to be such an overhead because they are compiled
> > > into servlets the first time you access them (you might even
precompile
> > > them sometimes) so they are more like a different way of specifying
your
> > > output.
> > >
> > > So, IMHO, if you are just producing HTML, you are just performing your
> > > operations in Java and you don't have a designer that can play XSLT,
> > > then there's no need to go for XML. But if you want to produce
different
> > > ouput formats reusing the same functionality, you need to seamlesly
> > > integrate different sources of the information into your HTML layer or
> > > you have a designer that can play XSLT then you can get some
advantages
> > > by using XML and you might want to produce it from Java through JSP.
> > >
> > > Just my 2ec
> > > Dan
> > > -------------------------------------------
> > > Daniel Lopez Janariz ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
> > > Web Services
> > > Computer Center
> > > Balearic Islands University
> > > -------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > > Shawn McKisson wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Why would you want to take data, convert it into another form of
data
> > and
> > > > *then* convert it into HTML?
> > > >
> > > > This is like pouring yourself a cold beer by first pouring it from
the
> > > > bottle into one mug, then pouring that mug into another mug.
> > > >
> > > > If a you have a JSP page which does emit XML, you could chain the
output
> > of
> > > > that page through another servlet which performed the XML/XSL
> > conversion. So
> > > > the XML/XSL servlet would use the JSP page as a data source.
> > > >
> > > > There were some really good articles about 7-12 months ago on
> > XML-INTEREST
> > > > about this.
> > > > If I can find them I will mail them to you.
> > > >
> > > > --shawn
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Robert Nicholson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 5:10 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: JSPs and XML.
> > > >
> > > > > I would like to know if a JSP app emits XML what component of
existing
> > > > > application servers can translate that to whatever presentation
> > language
> > > > is
> > > > > prefered? I want to understand how XSLT fits into a JSP app's
> > > > architecture.
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Shawn McKisson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 9:15 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: JSPs and XML.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Just return XML tags instead of only HTML tags.
> > > > > > There is nothing special that needs to be done.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you are going to just turn around and reprocess the XML into
HTML
> > > > using
> > > > > > something like XSL, then you are basically needlessly supporting
two
> > > > > > presentation layers. You should reconsider your app
architecture.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --shawn
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: Bilal Ali Nawaz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 1:36 AM
> > > > > > Subject: JSPs and XML.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > hi all,
> > > > > > > can anyone please direct me to some useful resources on the
web
> > > > > concerning
> > > > > > how
> > > > > > > to output XML through a JSP? basically what i want to study is
> > that
> > > > can
> > > > > > XML be
> > > > > > > 'thrown' by a jsp just like HTML? and if so, how??
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > thanking all of you in advance,
> > > > > > > bilal.
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> >
_________________________________________________________________________
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> > >
> > >
> >
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> > JSP-INTEREST".
> > > Some relevant FAQs on JSP/Servlets can be found at:
> > >
> > > http://java.sun.com/products/jsp/faq.html
> > > http://www.esperanto.org.nz/jsp/jspfaq.html
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> > >
> >
> >
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> > Some relevant FAQs on JSP/Servlets can be found at:
> >
> > http://java.sun.com/products/jsp/faq.html
> > http://www.esperanto.org.nz/jsp/jspfaq.html
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> >
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://cupid.suninternet.com/~joeo HOMES.COM Developer
>
>
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> Some relevant FAQs on JSP/Servlets can be found at:
>
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> http://www.esperanto.org.nz/jsp/jspfaq.html
> http://www.jguru.com/jguru/faq/faqpage.jsp?name=JSP
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>
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