" Bruno is reticent with his allusions, but I suspect that he has lived
in hollows made by plutonian and human efforts. They contain extensive gardens
with a flora more splendid than that of the upper world. The constant warmth
and the strange rays of light produce wonders. Botanists have released
previously unknown forces of nature. I asked Bruno, "Doesn't that seem odd,
since the biologists are on the side of the forests?"
"Now you know that when Proserpine was picking flowers on a meadow, she
was abducted by Pluto and carried off to the underworld."
Of course; his answer pointed to times when luminaries of science fell
into enemy hands, because of either cunning or force, and were ' turned
around.' "
Roberto Calvo:
Beatiful Thomas. That reminds me the marvelous Persefone_proserpine- Myhte. She
was abducted by Pluto and carried off to the underworld. Then, her mother
Demeter goes in her search. She goes to Eleusis: and that take us to the keys:
drugs- wow! all is interlaced!. In Eleusis she was at first refused-"Dieu se
retire", but after some maledictions people found the Mysterys- gods came
again.Then she request to Zeus to take part for she. And Zeus and Pluto get an
agree. Persefone keep living with Pluto in the underworld but came back every
spring. Conclusion
[Thomas Friese] Roberto, I know the myth about the spring being a return of
Persephone to her mother in the world of nature, but what of Junger's analogy -
it is now not a cycle of one year in which she disappears and returns but a
much longer one. Where are we in this cycle - in midwinter, or is the sap
already awakening in the limbs, the roots warming up and beginning to feel
themselves again, the first buds perhaps starting to emerge from the cool,
concealing bark. But what is powerful about this myth is the fact that sooner
or later Life always returns. (We might add, as do the gods....)
[Roberto Calvo Macias] Thats also my vision, and my hope.
About this I recomend you "Searching Persefone", and "Road to Eleusis", by
RGordon Wasson, Albert Hofmann, Carl A. P. Ruck, Jonathan Ott and Robert
Graves.
Page 361.
[Thomas Friese] I've heard about the Eleusis - drug hypothesis but I am not
convinced intuitively that there must have been drugs present. Have you read
Junger's "Annaeherung" - I particularly remember the chapter which referred to
Beaudelaire's artificial paradises. Modern man may need drugs to artificially
reach these planes of experience but that doesn't mean the ancients also
required such help. We should not judge past psycho-spiritual conditions by
today's reality. Eliade makes the same point about modern shamanic use of drugs
- modern shamans apparently believe that their ancestors were more powerful and
did not require drugs. So for Eliade spiritual drug use is a degenerate
condition.
[Roberto Calvo Macias] I must differ here. I´m not agree with Mr. Eliade -
thought i like his works-,in this aspect. Modern shamans use drugs, and also
did antique ones, as investigations have demostrated. Its also clearly that
greeks take psycotropic drugs in common life, its documented judicial cases
about ilegal inebriations. Certainly, its not sure its use in Eleusis, but why
not?.
Mr Eliade seems to have a prejudice against drugs. Drugs are mostly obtained
from plants, and EJ himself has said we are very close to plants, to nature.
Then, why is this a degenerate condition?. Its truth that experimented shamans
low its use within time- they get capable to manipulate their own minds, as we
can segregate adrenaline in a danger situation-, but drugs seems to be a
powerful tool to learn. Ancient shamans- in South and North America, India,
Siberia, etc had taken drugs- as arqueology rests demostrate- by milennias. Why
a degenerate condition?. I have not read EJ Annaeherung cause I think there is
no spanish edition, and at this moment I read german with a lot of difficulty,
so I am sorry we can not discuss over his work. But he is - i had let the
errata- a personal friend of A. Hofmann and I think he problably was agree with
this idea. Does he put something of this in Annaeherung?.
[Thomas Friese] Unfortunately I do not have Annaeherung with me anymore -
given your interests I think it would be a worthwhile effort for you to read it
- even in German. It is a remarkable book - it deals with a greater diversity
of drug experiences than anything else I have ever read. And it is not just the
author's personal experiential point of view but includes literary, political,
sociological, esoteric, historic, psychological sources. I wish I hadn't lost
my copy! Junger's insights are as usual based on an amazing sensitivity and
thorough research and they are not overly fantastic, as other books on this
subject tend to be. This is my objection with a lot of other literature on the
subject - it seems that once a person tries some of these substances they
entirely lose their skeptical side and with it all sense of restraint. Junger's
book is refreshingly different.
I also looked back into the Hervier Junger interviews published in English as
"The Details of Time" and there is almost a full chapter on drugs. Junger
compares the entry of wine into the Greek world with the introduction of LSD
and similar drugs into our own society. He even feels that wine had the greater
effect of the two. Of course another difference is that wine's power was
eventually sacralized and incorporated into a cult whereas LSD so far at least
remains a recreational drug at a social level ( the individual's "spiritual"
experience may be entirely valid but it is not yet part of any cult.)
I agree that Eliade does seem harsh on this subject - as you say, we are so
close to the plants, physically and biochemically perhaps spiritually. Using
them for altered states would seem quite natural. (If you have real audio,
check out this BBC program on Man's relationship to the plants - it includes
discussions on psychoactive plant use.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/audio/index.htm )
I don't place any judgement on the fact that it may now be necessary to use
artificial means to achieve ecstatic states - the climate changes and one
adapts. It simply may be impossible to do it any other way - for anyone. Look
at how interested a man of Junger's level was in artificially altered states.
But it is certainly not for everyone - as Junger says, it is very slippery
terrain and the fall may be a great one if one is not extremely careful.
Cheers,
Thomas
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