A few brief items. 1. Try to avoid referring to Julia as "her" in languages where a neutral pronoun is an option.
2. In any language, the combination of "her" + "courting" + "beautiful" qualifies as sexualization, as do jokes that imply sexual activity with Julia. Claiming that this is Anglocentric is nonsense: the implication of sexual activity is conceptual, not a linguistic, and is equally applicable in any language. I chose the word "sexualize" in the community standards very carefully. 3. Spencer's quoting of the Recurse Center User Manual is spot on and worth quoting again: If someone says, “that’s a Community Standards violation" don't worry. Just > apologize, reflect for a second, and move on. It doesn't mean you're a > "bad" person, or even a "bad” community member. These rules are meant to be > lightweight. We've all done these things before. In fact, we originally > adopted a no well-actually policy for our company because Nick and Dave > well-actually'd each other all the time. On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 12:20 PM, SVAKSHA <[email protected]> wrote: > On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Scott Jones <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 6:08:47 AM UTC-4, Stefan Karpinski wrote: > >> > >> No, it's the sexualization specifically. If we had named the language > >> "James", people would not be joking about how they were spending late > nights > >> with James or commenting on how attractive James is. Perhaps it's our > bad > >> for picking a feminine name, but I still like the name and hope that I > don't > >> come to regret it. It makes me wince every time someone refers to Julia > as > >> "she" because while that's fairly innocuous in itself, a majority of the > >> time the next statement is something that makes me uncomfortable. And > if it > >> makes me unconfortable, then it's guaranteed that it makes others feel > >> unwelcomed and like outsiders – which is not ok. > > Stefan, first, I owe you a "Thank you" for creating the community > standards, and a second "Thank you" for enforcing it. Very few FOSS[1] > communities care about having a CoC, much less enforcing it, so I am > glad to see that isnt the case in Julia. > > > I think Sisyphuss might actually have meant "genderization", not > > "sexualization" > > (I'm not sure if English is Sisyphuss' first language, which might > explain > > it). > > > > There is a big difference, and in many languages, it is not even > possible to > > avoid assigning a gender to a word. > > Lua, for example, is a feminine noun (A Lua, the moon). > > You can't even talk about a language in those languages without using > either > > masculine or feminine pronouns. > > ("El idioma" or "La lengua" or "El lenguaje", for example). > > Even in English, certain types of things are generally referred to with > one > > gender or the other - for example, people generally use the feminine > pronoun > > for boats, ships, and sometimes cars. > > > > Also, just calling something beautiful is not necessarily "sexualizing" > it. > > I could say that I find Scheme's sparse syntax is beautiful, for example > > (and I have said just that in the past!). > > In English, beautiful is commonly used for things, not just women, so > > doesn't necessarily indicate any sort of sexualization. > > I may not be personally offended or pushed out of Foss entirely > because I have experienced harassment, been sexually objectified or > stalked in Foss communities - I have, but a lot of women prefer to > leave, quietly. They prefer spending their time in better environments > that respected them, their time and efforts and I agree with that > observation - any Foss volunteers time and effort, irrespective of the > gender they belong to, deserves respect, so I'll echo Katie that > telling women to not get offended, not be thin-skinned is not the way > forward. > > > > Julia community is international, where English is not the > > first language of many speakers, I think maybe the Julia Community > Standard > > should be updated. > > The English language is not my native language either but that is not > an excuse to be unprofessional - sadly, a very very common theme in > Foss communities. This language would not be acceptable in a work > environment or official documentation, so why should Foss communities > put up with unprofessional behavior? This would not drive me out of > Foss but its annoying and cringe-inducing to hear unprofessional > attitudes are acceptable because this is a FOSS community where > anything goes. Not! > > > >>the programming language is not a person and does not have a gender. > > I think this should not be Anglo-centric, and would instead be clearer as > > follows: > > "the programming language is not a person and should not be > > anthropomorphized". > > Fwiw, non-native English speakers would not be using the term > "anthropomorphized" on a regular basis (I had to search for it), but > they would definitely understand what "sexualizing" means. While > writing standards[2] or documenting terms[3] it helps to use > terminology that is commonly used and easily understandable. Watering > down the terms will only create scope for more arguments that the > reader misunderstood the writer, exactly like some of the responses in > this thread that call out Stefan for enforcing the CoC. > > > > Also, I don't think that sexualizing would not happen if it had the name > > "James" (people being people, after all). > > The jokes might be less (because our society unfortunately tends to > > objectify and sexualize women more than men, and also because > unfortunately > > there are many more men than women programmers), but they'd still happen. > > The jokes about a straight/bisexual woman or gay/bisexual man who spends > a > > lot of late nights with James would still happen... like I said, > > people are people, and they *will* make jokes and bad puns if there is > any > > opening for such. > > (it could even be a straight guy or lesbian woman - if Julia were named > > James, I'm sure I'd have been the brunt of many jokes about how I must be > > really be gay, from all the nights I've been spending with James). > > Isnt that what the CoC is trying to do - clearly state that any joke > or statement that objectifies or puts down people of **any** gender is > not Ok? Its quite common to hear such jokes between friends and people > that one knows well, but given the widespread use of FOSS in business, > it (Foss) is an extension of the professional space where your > above-mentioned scenarios would not be acceptable in a public setting. > If its not acceptable in an office where one is expected to follow > professional norms, why treat Foss volunteers with any less respect > than what your co-workers deserve? > > > > I think the important points would be to > > 1) *gently* remind people to not anthropomorphize Julia > > 2) remind them that in English and other languages where possible, neuter > > pronouns should be used > > 3) point out that *real* cases of sexualization are not considered > > acceptable in public forums about Julia. > > The Geek Feminism wiki has a longer list, as does the Rust and other > communities[1][3] so you may want to use those for reference while > improving the BR[2]. > > > >> Carlos, I want to apologize for making an issue of this at the risk of > >> alienating or shaming you – that is absolutely not the intention and I > hope > >> it doesn't have that effect. For what it's worth, I don't think that > your > >> comment was meant maliciously and I wish I didn't have to say any of > this. > >> But standing by our community standards is too important not to say > >> something. > > +1. > > > > > The sad thing here is that it seems that Carlos very good points on > naming > > have been lost, because of a single line: > > Yup, I was enjoying the technical discussion until that line, which ... > > >>are mostly courting her because of how beautiful she is > > which in Spanish would probably not be an issue, because the "her" and > "she" > > are simply how you have to say it > > (and Carlos' first language might also not be English). > > ... was, and to <quote> (a fortiori, this is specially true for Julia, > considering that -by now- people are mostly courting her because of > how beautiful she is). </quote> > > The Latin phrase `a fortiori` when used in English[4] is an adverbial > phrase meaning "by even greater force of logic" or "all the more so", > so I dont think Stefan misread the "sexualization" aspect by a > non-native English language speaker/user. > > When I first read Stefan's email I was wondering if I should thank him > publicly or privately - the former runs the risk of protests and > arguments about the need for a CoC and I chose to stay silent to avoid > the inevitable in Foss! But, its important to speak up because long > threads delving into the English language minutiae come across as a > justification for negative behaviour and while that isnt new, it > definitely makes me uncomfortable even writing this email - I am a > non-native English speaker who does not want to argue endlessly on the > semantics and etymology of natural[5] languages on a mailing list. > > Most interestingly, thus far, Carlos didnt claim that (non-native > English language speaker) as an excuse, but the responses to Stefan in > this thread are making me wonder - if a core-dev is being called out > publicly for enforcing community standards, how would the community > treat a newbie (especially, a woman) who complained of being harassed, > had creepy comments in private or was stalked on IRC? Something to > think about, surely! > > Till date, I have been happily promoting Julia to one-and-all, but the > community responses speaks volumes. I truly hope that the community > supports the core-devs in their efforts to make this space more > welcoming to all. > > [1] http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Code_of_conduct_evaluations > [2] The BR : https://github.com/JuliaLang/julialang.github.com/issues/200 > [3] http://todogroup.org/opencodeofconduct/ > [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_fortiori_argument#Usage > [5] Far more productive to invest that time and energy in procuring a > linguistics degree, especially because women keep hearing similar > arguments across Foss communities - frankly, the echo chamber isnt > very convincing. > > - SVAKSHA ॥ http://about.me/svaksha ॥ >
