Hei, I know the Simple Feature Specification as well But exactly those 2 items: * Spatial Join and * Polygon Overlay
are not part of it - nor even mentioned, because they are advanced functions. so - I would propose to rename "Spatial Join / Transfer Attributes" now. And doing it before(!) the release. Because the item was first called "Transfer Attributes" (which is more descriptive), then it got renamed to "Spatial Join" and also moved from "Edit Attributes" to "Analysis" at the same time. And this is clearly not good for our users - as they can only find it by testing all functions. And concerning "Polygon Overlay..." - we can leave as it is.. I actually taught that too as "polygon overlay" in general with "polygon intersection" as specific operation that people need to explain. stefan (another teacher) Am 23.01.12 05:42, schrieb Uwe Dalluege: > Hi, > > at 2011.05.16 we had a discussion about changing menues > (see below). > My opinion again is to use names from OGC. > > http://www.opengeospatial.org/standards/sfa > > Please do not change every OJ version the menues! > Because it is hard work for the users to find them > and it is hard to update a tutorial. > > Regards > > Uwe (The academic teacher) :-) > > > > >>>>> old mail: > > Hi Michaël, > > thank you for your answer > > The problem with one/two layer is, that > the Geometry Functions works with one and with two layers. > So maybe it is better to avoid splitting in one/two layer. > > Maybe you have the old OpenJUMP version 1.2F. > There you find the whole Analysis functions under Tools>Analysis>... > > But you are right. This is my opinion. Please ask the > other users what they think about this. > > Thank you for your help. > > Regards > > Uwe > > > Am 16.05.2011 08:27, schrieb Michaël Michaud: > > Hi, > > > > I'll post to the list again when I'll have the whole picture (submenus > > with new items and submenus with removed items) > > > > When you propose to put some items to the Analysis submenu, in your > > opinion, should they be directly under Analysis ? under > > Analysis>OneLayer ? Do you keep OneLayer/TwoLayer submenus ? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Michaël > > > > Le 16/05/2011 08:18, Michaël Michaud a écrit : > >> Hi Uwe, > >> > >> I'm sorry, I was quite sure I sent an answer, but I should have delete > >> my mail before I sent it. > >> > >> I think you make a good point by refering to OGC standard. > >> I'm also not completely satisfied with the current tools menu. > >> > >> What I would like is > >> - to have a clear vision of the whole menu (I think that the changes > >> you propose may have other consequences on non-ogc features, and that > >> some submenus may loose their legitimity after that change) > >> - I'd like to have some feedback from other power users, because I > >> think that many users have teir own idea about where tools should be > >> and we already moves some tools. > >> > >> I will post your propositions again to the list > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Michaël > >> > >> > >> > >> Le 16/05/2011 07:57, Uwe Dalluege a écrit : > >>> Good morning Michaël, > >>> > >>> last week I posted following mail to the JPP-Devel list > >>> (I hope so) > >>> I am not shure whether this mail > >>> arrived the mailing list. > >>> > >>> What do you you think about my suggestion? > >>> Do you think that it is possible and usefull > >>> to change the menues? > >>> > >>> > >>> Greeting from Hamburg > >>> > >>> Uwe > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>> it is a little tricky to find the spatial analysis > >>> functions in OpenJUMP. > >>> > >>> In the > >>> > >>> OpenGIS Implementation Specification for Geographic information - > Simple > >>> feature access - Part 1: Common architecture > >>> > >>> http://www.opengeospatial.org/standards/sfa > >>> > >>> you find at page 17 (6.1.2.4) > >>> "Methods that support spatial analysis" > >>> > >>> there you find for example Buffer, Intersection and ConvexHull. > >>> > >>> Is it possible to move > >>> > >>> a) Tools>Generate>Buffer > >>> b) Tools>Generate>Convex Hull > >>> c) Tools>Generate>Convex Hull on Layer... > >>> d) Tools>Edit Geometry>Geometry Functions... > >>> > >>> to > >>> > >>> Tools>Analysis? > >>> > >>> > >>> because in the OGC Specification you will find this > >>> functions under Analysis. > >>> > >>> Regards > >>> > >>> Uwe > >>> > >>> > >>> Mit freundlichen Gruessen > >>> > >>> Uwe Dalluege > >>> > >> > > > Am 23.01.2012 11:58, schrieb Rahkonen Jukka: >> Hi, >> >> Do I remember right or was there some academic teacher with the discussion >> back then? And the reason for changing some naming and grouping was aiming >> to better match with some OGC document? >> >> I feel it is confusing to have slightly different names for about similar >> but not exactly same operations in ESRI world, OGC definitions etc. >> Union/merge/dissolve is one example that comes to my mind. It may be >> impossible to find an uniform names for everything. Some little example >> images about source layers before operation and after that would be nice to >> have available when selecting the tools and why not a lexicon telling what >> terms other popular softwares are using for the equivalent operation. >> >> I also hope that the menus would not changed very often. >> >> -Jukka Rahkonen- >> >>> -----Alkuperäinen viesti----- >>> Lähettäjä: Stefan Steiniger [mailto:[email protected]] >>> Lähetetty: 23. tammikuuta 2012 1:07 >>> Vastaanottaja: OpenJump develop and use >>> Aihe: Re: [JPP-Devel] Renaming functions and moving menu >>> positions - need for guidelines? >>> >>> Hi Michael and others, >>> >>> Michael, I am not blaming you and I know that you are careful with >>> theses things,... And yes, I know there was no feedback to Noder and >>> Union plugin. Because, I think, it was fine. >>> >>> However, for the renaming a while ago.. I was travelling and >>> did not use >>> OJ much since. Though, the original naming was partly from me >>> - and that >>> maybe why I am now "more active" on that too. >>> >>> And with respect to your note on that its very short before a major >>> release: Yes, its exactly why I am going trough it - and >>> because I have >>> not seen descriptions of the changes earlier for any of the >>> in-between >>> releases after 1.4.1 and started to look for "Transfer >>> attributes" and >>> the polygon intersection functions in my recent work and when I was >>> trying to update documentation (But of course, maybe I did >>> not read all >>> the change/release notes). >>> >>> However, to come to the core points: >>> ==================================== >>> >>> (i) Overlay Polygon Layers. >>> I thought about "merge" too, but you are right - its not just putting >>> them together. Though the term "Overlay" is not descriptive >>> at the end, >>> but your argumentation w.r.t. text book definition of overlay is >>> correct. Not sure, maybe we leave it then this way. >>> >>> (ii) Spatial Join -> Transfer Attributes to Layer >>> as you noticed, its DBMS speak. I really can't see why we >>> should adopt >>> it, because the words "Spatial Join" indicates a "geometry" >>> operation to >>> me. At least we should say "Spatial Join of Attributes" or so. >>> >>> (iii) Spatial Join with Aggregation -> Transfer and Aggregate >>> Attributes >>> to Layer >>> >>> good comment by you on the aggregation, so I changed my proposal >>> >>> (vi) Polygon Intersection (one layer): >>> I am going to add that function back - but to the "edit geometry" >>> submenu, as this seems to be the place to make ops within a >>> layer that >>> are related to creating new datasets (well.. holds also for >>> buffer, but...). >>> >>> >>> So - for everyone who reads until here: >>> please can I ask for the opinion on namening/re-naming back >>> to earlier >>> changes? >>> >>> stefan >>> >>> Am 22.01.12 15:00, schrieb Michaël Michaud: >>>> Hi Stefan, >>>> >>>> GIS function classification is really a puzzle, and it is quite >>>> difficult to make everybody happy, but as I committed most >>>> of the changes you're talking about, I'll try to explain, then, >>>> we can do any change you guys, want to do. >>>> >>>> 1 - Announcement, votes and rules are necessary... >>>> but can only apply when there is some activity : >>>> I really tried to get feedback at the time of the changes >>>> you've mentionned, (as far as I can remember 1 or 2 >>>> persons agreed and no one disagreed). >>>> >>>> 2 - Menu organisation >>>> I'm not completely satisfied with current organisation, but I >>>> think it is better now than one year ago. >>>> - We find most usual GIS Analysis tools in Tools>Analyis >>> (which is good) >>>> except some in Tools>Edit Geometry (which, in my opinion, >>> is not so good) >>>> - We removed One Layer/Two Layers submenu. I think this separation >>>> made sense, but it was not very user-friendly as the user >>> had to answer >>>> one more question before he could find the menu item he was >>> looking for >>>> - I have not hesitated much before I changed Run Database >>> query to file >>>> menu, because all input/output are in File menu now, >>> including database >>>> access, and in my opinion, searching Run Query tool in >>> Layer menu was >>>> just a bad habit. >>>> Maybe I did not communicate enough about this change though ;o( >>>> >>>> 3 - Menu item names. >>>> I've to be more careful on this subject as my english is not so good >>>> However, as I understand gis terms, overlay applies quite well >>>> to "Overlay Polygon Layers..." menu item (a bit less to >>> "Overlay...") >>>> >>>> Some definitions of Overlay : >>>> Overlay: A formal geometric intersection between two or >>> more layers of >>>> spatially referenced data. A layer produced by an overlay >>> will contain >>>> both the spatial data and the attribute data from the input layers. >>>> Polygon overlay : A process that merges spatially >>> coincident polygons >>>> from two coverages, and their attributes, to create a third >>> coverage, >>>> that contains new polygons and describes new relationships ... >>>> Overlay is the core part of GIS analysis operation. It >>> combines several >>>> spatial features to generate new spatial elements. >>>> >>>> AFAIK, this is what Overlay Polygon Layers does, isn't it ? >>>> >>>> Currently, Overlay... menu item output is limited to intersections >>>> So for this one, Intersection would also apply >>>> Ideally, I would like a single Overlay menu item which would >>>> process all features (not only Polygons), and not limited to >>>> intersections (a mix of both plugins if you followed me), but this >>>> is out of scope now. >>>> For now, I agree "Intersection" would also fit what current >>>> "Overlays" plugin does. >>>> I don't agree with "Merge" as features are not merged, but divided >>>> as they intersect each others ! >>>> >>>> About join versus transfer attribute, I agree with you that transfer >>>> attribute is more easy to understand for anyone who has not a >>>> strong dbms background. >>>> However, one of the tool do not "transfer" attribute but "aggregate" >>>> values, and the other one creates new features for each match >>>> which is exactly what a JOIN does (respectively with and without >>>> a group by statement) and what is a bit different from what one >>>> can expect with a name like "transfer attribute. >>>> >>>> That said, I'm very pleased to discuss these things with >>> expert users >>>> and just regret that the discussion comes one week before a major >>>> release. >>>> If you organize a vote to make sure we do the right >>> decision, I'll be >>>> pleased to vote and to accept the decision of the community, >>>> but remember, I asked 2 questions about new Noder and new Union >>>> plugin months ago, and I never get the 3 votes to make a decision ! >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Michaël >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Le 22/01/2012 19:48, Stefan Steiniger a écrit : >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> now, after having sent of the other email, I tried to >>> analyse why I am >>>>> actually unhappy with what happened. It came out pretty simple: >>>>> >>>>> "I was used to the old naming and menu positions" >>>>> >>>>> furthermore, there was just right now an email on the user >>> list about >>>>> >>>>> "Where is that function gone" (in this case datastore query). >>>>> >>>>> It highlights a couple of things, that we can summarize as >>> "don't change >>>>> the "User API" without a clear announcement". But in detail: >>>>> >>>>> - if we change names, then users may not found the function anymore >>>>> - if we change the menu positions of functions, then users >>> may not found >>>>> them anymore >>>>> >>>>> further: >>>>> - names should be descriptive >>>>> - names should adhere to standards (not necessarily to ArcGIS, but >>>>> sometimes...) >>>>> >>>>> I also recognized the following: >>>>> - ESRI never changed names of function as long as I >>> remember, except >>>>> maybe when they moved from 8.x to 9.x and got a complete >>> new user interface >>>>> - ESRI is using function names that are not very >>> descriptive all the >>>>> time, but they try to restrict it to one word - which describes the >>>>> action, e.g. "eliminate", "dissolve", "union", "spatial join". >>>>> - I actually do not aggree with some ESRI naming of >>> functions, since the >>>>> technical standards (OGC SFS) use actually different names >>> (union vs. >>>>> intersection, dissolve vs. union). But I guess the reason >>> is that the >>>>> standards are younger than ArcInfo/GIS. >>>>> >>>>> So, based on that I see a need for the next release notes >>> (for 1.5.1) to >>>>> 1) describe somewhere what functions have been renamed and >>> moved (quite >>>>> a bit). >>>>> 2) To introduce proper naming and location rules. And >>> related to that I >>>>> think the location and naming of new functions need to be >>> "approved" by >>>>> at least 3 people - and not changed anymore thereafter >>> until a major >>>>> release ("X.X"). >>>>> >>>>> Any further opinions? >>>>> >>>>> stefan >>>>> >>>>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ---------------- >>>>> Try before you buy = See our experts in action! >>>>> The most comprehensive online learning library for >>> Microsoft developers >>>>> is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus >>> HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, >>>>> Metro Style Apps, more. 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