I don't come from a mainframe background so thanks for the info.....:))

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wade Curry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Main Discussion List for KPLUG" <[email protected]>
Subject: Mainframe clarifications Was: VM and hypervisor        
clarifications.......
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 21:15:10 -0700

> 
> Randall Shimizu([EMAIL PROTECTED])@Sat, Oct 22, 2005 at 
> 02:54:19PM -0800:
> > There seemed to be a lot of confusion regarding the functiona
> > definiton of a hypervisor so I will elucidate:
> >
> > Hypervisor: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypervisor )A
> > hypervisors main function is manage different VM's. Hypersvisors
> > is also responsible for the instantiation and termination of a
> > VM. Now there is both a software and hardware based hypervisor.
> > VMware and IBM's DLPAR (Dynamic logical partitioning) technoogy
> > are both of this iteration. The hardware based hypervisor is it's
> > own OS. This allows the system to remain up even if the other
> > VM's crash. IBM"s  has had hardware hypervisors ever since the
> > introduction of S/390.
> 
> I had to read that a couple of times.  The last statement is
> misleading. S/390 is the previous line of mainframe systems from
> IBM. That is, I think, the first version that could create LPARs.

I believe that hardware hypervisors were introduced after the introduction of 
the S/390's.
> That is, the hardware could be partitioned up to 15(?) ways.  The
> technology that allows that is called: PR/SM  (Processor
> Resource/System Manager).  It is tempting to simply say that this
> is just a harware hypervisor by another name, but I don't think
> that is accurate because the main reason for its existence is to
> isolate the hardware resources.  
The purpose is isolate VM and OS resources, although hardware is seperated 
virtually.
So, what you have is a very
> strictly divided system.  Clearly there is some system
> virtualisation going on, but I don't think that's all there is to a
> hypervisor.
> 
> I'm not sure why you would think that this hardware capability
> constitutes its own OS.

Well on VMWare's ESX you are loading actual OS on the ESX card itself, which 
acts as the host OS.
> 
> >
> > DLPAR is highly advance load balancing VM technology on IBM's
> > Power and PPC platforms. DLPAR has the ability start or end new
> > VM's as the systems requirements is changing. VM technoogy is not 
> > a new technology at least for IBM Z-Series.
> > IBM"s MVS (Multiple Virtual Systems) refers to multiple VM's
> > running multiple instances of S/390.


> 
> MVS *really* stands for "Multiple Virtual Storage".  The name
> existed before LPAR functionality, and was first used to refer to
> OS/370.  The S/360 was able to address a whopping 16MB of central
> storage (memory, in mainframe jargon).  The OS/370 saw that
> increase to 64MB, but that was only the half of it.  It also included
> a hardware feature that translated the address space for each of
> the programs that were running (there was a limit of 15 concurrent
> programs).  Each running program actually was swapped out to DASD
> (hard disk) and each one "thought" it had the run of "all 16 MB",
> because it had its own addressable virtual storage.  Hence the
> name.
> 
> S/390 refers to hardware, while OS/390 refers to one of the IBM
> operating systems that runs on it.  The current hardware is called
> z/Series, and the OS is z/OS (all 64-bit, and still called MVS most
> of the time).  The other mainframe OS that hasn't been mentioned is
> z/VM.  That one has a hypervisor.
> 
> >                                      But beyond all this the
> > S/390 can run simultaneous parallel trancations
> 
> I'm not sure what you're getting at here.  It sounds like you're
> talking about multitasking.  You don't need a parallel sysplex for
> that.
> 
> >                                                 (IBM parallel
> > sysplex: allows for clustered Z-series boxes)
> 
> They can be kind of like clusters.  Often times they are not like
> clusters so much.  For example, all the LPARs I work on are part of
> some sysplex, but they remain mostly distinct.  LPARs share the
> storage complex, and they can share processor cycles, too.
> Sometimes you'll see one LPAR usng 125% of it's processor cycles.
> This is because another LPAR in the sysplex gave some up for it to
> use.  As far as I know, in clusters, you'd usually expect
> _processes_ to be shared rather than cpu cycles, so this is
> somewhat different. I am pretty sure this is done at a couple of
> different levels.  Part of it may be done by JES2 (system software
> that controls the availability of resources and job execution--This
> is the software that you are talking to when you write JCL).
> 
> >                                               as well with full
> > rollback cability.
> 
> Back to transactions.  This is important in some areas of MVS
> software, but it isn't everywhere.  IMS and CICS are two different
> (ubiquitous) ways to provide an application framework and the
> ability to connect.  I'm more familiar with IMS, and it does have
> checkpointing plus copious logging of the transactions and all the
> resources and datasets (files) that were used.
> 
> >                     So in other words a enterprise has not only
> > system fault tolerance, but application fault tolerance as well.
> > So it becomes clearer why so many forturne 500 enterprises still
> > run mainframes.
> 

Well for one thing  mainframes can deliver up to 7 9's of reliability. IBM's 
line holds record for the longest uptime of any system. I heard awhile back 
that one S/390 was up for almost 7 years I believe. The x86 platform can still 
only deliver 5 9's of reliability.... It's getting much better, but there is 
still system throughput issues that is unresolved..

> Mainframes are much more popular than is widely known outside big
> business.  I don't think stability is the main reason for the
> businesses' heavy reliance on them, though (although it is a
> factor).  I believe it has to do with the fact mainframes have
> specific features that "pointy-hairs" and "bean-counters" love.
> 
> Nearly every facet of mainframe system software is extremly
> modular, configurable, and customizable.  Also, everything is
> logged.  You think you have seen lots of logs in /var/log?  You
> ain't seen nothing.  Further, you can configure exactly what
> processes/jobs get what resources first at several levels.  In a
> business where they are continually scrutinizing costs (licensing
> for each LPAR, CPU cycles, DASD disk space, ad nauseam) the
> logging, configurability and control is essential.
> 
> MVS mainframes have a menu-driven user interface, a reliance on
> JCL, and a much less flexible end-user environment overall.  On the
> other hand, *nix shines in its flexibility and user interface, IMO.
> It just wasn't developed with business in mind.  Even the clusters
> that are being built now seem to me to be much more directed at
> research than business.  The software that businesses rely on
> strongly to run their mainframes and applications are either just
> getting started, or are non-existent in the unix world.
> 
> Just for the sake of completeness, z/VM (which I am not familiar
> with) started out as a skunk works project at IBM, and wasn't
> released until long after MVS.  Besides being used as a regular OS,
> it provides a hypervisor and virtual machine capabilities in
> addition to what the hardware offers.  It is the OS that is used
> when people set up linux server farms on a mainframe.  It is also
> generally considered to be less stable than MVS by the folks I work
> with.  I can't tell if that is a justifiable bias, or not.
> 
> I hope that was clear, and interesting to at least one other
> person ;)
> 
> Wade Curry
> syntaxman
> 
> 
> --
> [email protected]
> http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list


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