On 1/8/07, Andrew Lentvorski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Plus, Lisp loses on size of community and size of standard libraries.
> How the @[EMAIL PROTECTED] am i supposed to convince myself to spend 3 years
> learning all the goodies of Lisp then?
The Lisp community also has some interesting ... features:
See: "The Bipolar Lisp Programmer"
http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm
One of the passages which resonates the strongest with me:
(BBM stands for Brilliant Bipolar Mind)
> One of these is the inability to finish things off properly. The
> phrase 'throw-away design' is absolutely made for the BBM and it
> comes from the Lisp community. Lisp allows you to just chuck things
> off so easily, and it is easy to take this for granted. I saw this
> 10 years ago when looking for a GUI to my Lisp (Garnet had just gone
> West then). No problem, there were 9 different offerings. The
> trouble was that none of the 9 were properly documented and none were
> bug free. Basically each person had implemented his own solution and
> it worked for him so that was fine. This is a BBM attitude; it
> works for me and I understand it. It is also the product of not
> needing or wanting anybody else's help to do something.
>
> Now in contrast, the C/C++ approach is quite different. It's so damn
> hard to do anything with tweezers and glue that anything significant
> you do will be a real achievement. You want to document it. Also
> you're liable to need help in any C project of significant size; so
> you're liable to be social and work with others. You need to, just
> to get somewhere.
>
> And all that, from the point of view of an employer, is attractive.
> Ten people who communicate, document things properly and work
> together are preferable to one BBM hacking Lisp who can only be
> replaced by another BBM (if you can find one) in the not unlikely
> event that he will, at some time, go down without being rebootable.
By the way, this criticism is not unique to Lisp--it holds for most of
the programming community. It just seems to run strongest in Lispniks.
-a
This quote is an extremely accurate description of the mindset
of a good Forth programmer as well. I do not consider it a criticism.
I consider it a description that helps one to know when to use
Lisp (or Forth) and when not to.
Again the interactivity, which allows one to truly converse with oneself
through the computing media is the reason why these environments
support the BBM.
Like its close cousin Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD) the BBM has its
place and can make magnificent contributions. A good manager of
a team of say a dozen people needs to have at least one BBM running
out front. That same manager better plan on tossing most of that
code out (but keeping an occasional idea.) Programming is, after all,
not just about the mechanical and "professional" implementation of
specs. It is also a creative activity and it helps to have a few seriously
creative and slightly out of control people around even in a business.
Not everyone is designed to be an employee. There are other goals
in life than being "attractive to an employer."
Still crazy after all these years,
BobLQ
PS for Chris. The key is interactivity. You _must_ experience this.
Talking about it is not the same. Talking about sex is not the same
as experiencing sex. Go try a Lisp system for a while. You will either
"get it" within a few days ... or you won't. It is _not_ the same as just
grinding through learning another language. It is using your mind in
a different way, a way many programmers never experience.
BTW, one test of whether or not you might be the personality type
to really like Lisp is to answer the question, "What is the longest that
you have ever programmed in one session?" If the answer is more than
twenty four hours than you might well be a BM and maybe even a BBM.
Toss in a little ADD and you could be a potential mighty Lisper.
Perhaps you think I am being tongue in cheek. I am not. These are my
true beliefs. It takes all kinds.
--
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