On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 2:51 PM, Andrew Lentvorski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Bob La Quey wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 9:56 PM, Andrew Lentvorski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
>
>
> > Teaching is only hard when you teach poor learners.
> >
>
>  I wholeheartedly disagree.  With some of the best learners (and I have been
> fortunate to have had some very good students), teaching gets *harder*, not
> easier.  I know the questions and problems an "average" class will have.
> Truly good learners will come up with questions and problems you've never
> tought of and will require work to figure out.  It may be more enjoyable,
> but it is more work.

We are talking about two different things. Getting a truly poor learner
to learn something is often a test of patience. Also I would not want
to confuse work with difficulty.

My point is that getting a student to a certain benchmark is
a lot easier with a good learner. After all that is the definition
of a good learner.

>
> > I know a number of educators (not great "teachers" ;) who consider the
> > entire educational process just one of filtering. Find the ones
> > who can do, encourage them and stay out of their way. Personally
> > I always preferred that approach in my teachers.
> >
>
>  I really disagree with this.  This assumes that the "teacher" has no value
> in imparting knowledge.  I have watched people who don't "get" something
> chew through the same subject with a different teacher.

My experience was that the teacher was only rarely of real value
in imparting knowledge. I can think of three instances during a
long period of being "taught." Mostly teachers seemed to require
attendance at boring sessions which were covered better by books
and the literature.

I do hope we get back to trying to figure out what programming
is though. Instead I suspect the thread will rapidly degenerate
into a debate on teaching and education :( Please folks do change
the subject line if you feel compelled to go that way.)

>  Encouragement is important, but there is value in the knowledge and
> experience of the teacher.

Give me a good guide to the literature. Then leave me alone. I can
use my time more effectively if left to my own devices.

> > I suppose you could argue that computers are extremely poor
> > learners so that is why they are hard to teach. As far as
> > I am concerned that simply stretches the metafor to the
> > breaking point. Human based metaphors for programming or
> > computing mislead more often then enlighten.
> >
>
>  Sometimes.  However, a computer is *truly* stupid.  Programming a computer
> is explaining things to a very obedient, but very dumb automaton.

So is that what you consider teaching in this case?

You have just said that teaching a bright student is hard.

Now you are saying also that teaching a dumb student (a computer)
is also hard. I am getting the feeling that you are arguing
"Heads, I win. Tails, you lose." for your metaphor.

I am _not_ buying that argument :)

BobLQ


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