SJS wrote:
begin quoting Ralph Shumaker as of Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 03:23:52PM -0700:
James G. Sack (jim) wrote:
I'll be looking forward to RS's commentary on this.
http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/08/medeco-locks-cr.html
The above was found from /. How can one resist reading any article with
"Shrinky Dinks" in the headline?
I may be wrong, but I believe this may actually work, to a degree.
The best thing to every happen to the lock(smith) industry is the
invasion of crypto-geeks. :)
I'm not sure I agree with this. Electronic access is less secure, but
more convenient for the user, and trackable for security. And circuitry
is far more prone to failure than traditional locks.
Although I'm a little reluctant to believe that the plastic will be
thick enough to get the correct rotation of the Medeco pins (as
described decently in the article). Medeco pins have to be the correct
height _and_ rotation before the lock can turn.
To what tolerance? 30 degrees? 15 degrees? I'm not suprised that
thickness isn't a real factor.
Tolerance? First, I'll answer that I don't really know. But, new, I
would estimate about 10°. That being said, I don't know what the
rotation angle is supposed to be. I think it's 45°. If not, then it
wouldn't be much less. I'll take a look next time I'm next to the
machine I use.
Credit card type plastic (probably nylon actually) has already been used
for spare door keys made by AAA for many years now. The plastic keys
were never meant to be used in the ignition (not even once), and even in
the doors, were only meant to be used 2 or 3 times at the most. But
I've made some decent money digging that plastic out of ignitions and
doors. Even _knowing_ they aren't supposed to stick it into the
ignition, people still do. And even _knowing_ they shouldn't even use
it in the doors more than 2 or 3 times, they still do. They don't
expect it to get stuck and break off, but it does.
Yup, I used to have some of those. The plastic was actually thicker
than an actual credit-card, but for a car where you were likely to
lock the keys in the car, it was a clever idea.
Opening a door with a nylon key was a tricky experience, and I can
easily see how rushing it would break the key off. I always took it
slow and careful.
As for being used in the ignition... a lot of cars are set up so
that you're not _supposed_ to turn the key itself. So if you're
careful, a nylon key would work just fine.
Yeah, you would *think* that, but twisting is not the biggest threat to
a plastic or nylon key in an ignition. There are a few things in most
ignitions that will clamp down too hard on a plastic or nylon key but
which don't affect a metal key all that much. You probably wouldn't
even be able to push a plastic or nylon key IN through pinch rollers (on
Volvo or VW or somesuch), and even if you do manage to get it in, you
*aint* gettin it out. Most plastic keys that I have to dig out require
me to move a strong mechanism out of the way. What makes this more
difficult is that the tools move the mechanism out of the way, but then
the tools are in the way. A sure-fire exercise in frustration at times,
even if you *do* have my level of patience. But, over time, I've gained
a decent level of dexterity in it.
Twisting will break a nylon key, especially repeated twisting, which is
why it is supposed to be used just a few times in the doors. But they
should *never* be used in the ignition, unless you have no other choice,
like when your regular key breaks and your in the middle of nowhere.
Security is such that if there _is_ a break-in, it's better to know that
it happened. A plastic key is *much* more likely to break off inside
the lock, which would quickly give you away (the next time someone tries
to stick their key in). I know how to minimize that risk, but even most
locksmiths have probably never thought about it.
I quote from the article:
"Once the plastic key is inside the cylinder and lifts the pins, it's
not actually strong enough to turn the cylinder, so the researchers
insert a small turning wrench to turn the cylinder and open the lock."
Well, turning is not what I was thinking would be the most likely thing
to break it off inside, altho that could do it easily enough. A turning
wrench would help with turning, but not removal.
If a key isn't cut right, all kinds of problems could result. Although
it is rare, one kind of cut fault can stop a key from going in. Another
cut fault will allow the key to go in just fine, but stop it cold from
coming back out. If I wanted to screw you over, I could cut such a key
and stick it into your lock. It doesn't damage the lock, but it would
make it almost as difficult to unlock.
But my point about the plastic key is that forces inside the lock
attempt to hold the key in place and could be strong enough to prevent
you from removing a plastic key without ripping it in twain.
This would be a way around apartment house charges of $50 for a spare
key for the main entrance or the pool, but will end up just being extra
costly for management when they have to pay locksmiths to remove the
broken plastic. And they'll have virtually no way of knowing who was
responsible, short of witnesses.
Same problem exists with 13-year-olds and epoxy.
Is it really that big of an issue?
Not in those terms, I suppose, tho that's really apples and oranges.
The plastic key user is trying to defeat the lock and get through. The
epoxy squirter is actually trying to be a cowardly prick (and succeeding).
As I began reading the article, I was thinking that it would actually
have a decent chance of working in the Medeco locks I've dealt with, but
I was certain it would not work in Assa or Schlage Primus because of
side milling (which the article eventually mentions around the middle),
nor even Schlage Everest. I'm not familiar with many other high
security locks.
Part of the problem is that there's a desire to loan out keys to give
someone temporary access to a resource, and once someone has the key
under their control, the game seems to be up.
The problem here is that *seeing* a key is sufficient to break it.
This is true. If I am at your house and your keys are laying somewhere,
I don't need a camera. But I _would_ need to stare at one of them for a
few seconds.
I must admit, if I ever come across a customer who has a broken Medeco
key (not a mere foto) and is paying me to get him in, I might consider
creating a duplicate (for one-time use only) from an old credit card (or
hotel room key). But I've never had such a situation before, so I doubt
the likelihood of ever encountering it.
Use their credit card. AFTER charging your fee to it.
ROTFLMAO!!!!!
If that's all that's available, they would probably go for it, if
desperate enough.
--
No experiment can be more interesting than that we are now trying, and
which we trust will end in establishing the fact, that man may be
governed by reason and truth. Our first object should therefore be, to
leave open to him all the avenues to truth. The most effectual hitherto
found, is the freedom of the press. It is, therefore, the first shut up
by those who fear the investigation of their actions.
--Thomas Jefferson to John Tyler, 1804
--
KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org
http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
