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Chuck Esterbrook wrote:
> On Nov 12, 2007 11:07 AM, Christopher Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> Well, but they *did* write a browser in Objective-C:
>>> http://www.omnigroup.com/applications/omniweb/
>> I love almost everything the Omni guys do. That said, last I used that
>> thing it had trouble with all kinds of websites. Has it come along since
>> then?
> 
> Based on reviews, it has. But I haven't used it myself as I tend to
> oscillate between Safari and Firefox.

Okay then. Perhaps it is possible that C++ provides no redeeming value
over Objective-C. Interestingly, until 2.0, Objective-C *also* didn't
have automatic memory management (and certainly OmniWeb doesn't have it
or they rolled their own on top of Objective-C, as C++ developers
sometimes do). So ironically, we're still left with a perplexing lack of
consistency between reality and the original assertion that started this
thread.

> Then we can at least agree that C++ is like Windows.  :-)

Well, I like C++ more than I like Windows, but yeah, they both have the
aesthetic beauty of... well I'm not sure what the right words are.

> It's also popular to trash it because it sucks.   :-)
> See: http://yosefk.com/c++fqa/defective.html

Yes, I'm very familiar with the site. It is not entirely correct, but
certainly it is fair to say that C++ has a lot of syntactic baroqueness,
and this is the result of a deliberate trade off by the designer(s) of
the language. I could write a similar paper (okay, probably a lot less
on the baroque syntax) on any language that I'd used extensively. Use a
language long enough and you start to understand all those horrid warts.

A language designer will tell you that languages are about trade offs,
so you can't come up with a prefect language. They will always have
things they don't do well. Occasionally, someone comes up with a set of
trade offs that seem practical for a useful subset of problems. I've yet
to be convinced that any of those languages is really that much better
than all others for anything but a subset of problems, and I frequently
am left asking the question, "if language A really is so crappy, why
hasn't every widely used application developed in it been replaced by
some version written in a different language?"

> By the way, I once became so fed up with crashes in KMail (back when I
> used Linux as my desktop) that I filed a bug report contending that
> something as important as a mail client should be done in a "protected
> programming language", such as Python or Java, so that (a) crashes
> were accompanied by a timely, accurate stack trace and (b) corruption
> of data was less likely.

I've tried using some of the Java mail clients people have come up with.
They always seems to be inferior to their C and C++ counterparts (heck,
often inferior to their *elisp* counterparts!). A few times I've thought
about writing my own just to see if I could make one that really was
better. I've thought of writing one that was largely in a scripting
language with some C++ components, but upon reflection it isn't clear
that its significantly easier to make a high quality mail client in Java
or any other language I've played with than doing so in C++. The primary
challenges have little to do with the language and while C++ presents
problems that the others do not, vice versa is also true.

- --Chris
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