I put that stuff in my VW bus in 1980 when it had omly 25,000 miles and
in the next 1,500 miles it droped a valve and destroyed theentire
engine.I hope it has been improved since then.
Jim
On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:39:48 -0400 VIRGIL N SALISBURY <[email protected]>
writes:
> AMSOIL 10W-40, of course, Virg. Note signature line ; )
>
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:53:42 -0500 "countryhomeprint"
> <[email protected]> writes:
> > My 2180 Volkswagen now has 23 hours on it since rebuild and first
>
> > flight. I
> > have been using a 30 weight oil. When the 25 hour inspection and
> > oilchange
> > comes about, what weight multi-grade oil do you recommend. All of
> my
> >
> > temperatures stay well within the recommended limits.
> >
> > Bill Page
> > [email protected]
> > N880AB
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <[email protected]>
> > To: "KRnet" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 11:15 AM
> > Subject: Re: Re: KR> oils and stuff
> >
> >
> > > Hello Phil
> > > Thanks for the email and tell Ron I appreciate the time it took
>
> > him to
> > > reply, and the length of his explanation. He is busy running a
>
> > business
> > > so I know he made some sacrifice, even if it means sleep! LOL
> > >
> > > I will agree that all oils have improved over the years, they
> > would have
> > > to. It would be stupid to not include advances in straight
> weights
> > found
> > > in multi's. And some of Rons points about the merits of single
>
> > visc oils
> > > I also agree with. I believe all engines should be broken in on
>
> > single
> > > visc oils. The multi's do have too many additives that can end
> up
> > burnt or
> > > not providing enough cushion lube to closely machined parts. We
>
> > are also
> > > making some broad statements, because Oil Companies are known
> for
> > changing
> > > oil and fuels to suit different climates AND different markets.
> > >
> > > The early 70's engines and late 60's engines are probably the
> best
> > know
> > > around the world. Most other engines are measured against these
>
> > engines.
> > > However, they are two full generations back from today's advanced
>
> > engines.
> > > Those engines were kept at 160 to 165 degrees because water
> pump,
> >
> > > radiator, coolant, and oil technology could not keep them cool
> if
> > they ran
> > > hotter. This has a negative effect on fuel atomization and
> > combustion
> > > chamber efficiency. Here we need things to be the hottest it can
>
> > be
> > > without causing the fuel to flash ignite or become complete
> vapor
> > prior to
> > > entering the chamber itself.
> > >
> > > Late 90's and engines of the 2000's are designed to attempt to
> > maximize
> > > these parameters. They have thermostats that do not open until
> 195
> > degrees
> > > and are fully open between 205 and 210F. Then system hovers the
>
> > temp
> > > between 205 and 220 relying on thermostat, and the coolant
> > properties and
> > > pressure to prevent the coolant from boiling over. These modern
>
> > multi
> > > oils also need over 140 degrees before they even begin to
> activate
> > the
> > > additives within them. An engine maintained at or near 160 will
>
> > never be
> > > able to benefit from a multi oil and will in fact do damage.
> > However, this
> > > engine will also have a short life due to this low temp, as
> > engineers of
> > > late have found, due to the fact that the metal is "cold" too
> much
> > of the
> > > time effecting everything from the fuel atomization to the
> > strength of the
> > > crank. Mixtures will have to be richer, which causes more
> cylinder
> > wash,
> > > shortens any oil's life. The crank is weaker possibly as much as
>
> > by half,
> > > due to the fact that areas not flexing are around engine temp,
> > while areas
> > > flexing and working are going up in temp, with a more brittle
> > metal. I
> > > have always been told by those that know that metals break
> faster
> > in the
> > > winter than summer.
> > >
> > > A quick check of the temp ranges of operation for single vs
> multi
> > will
> > > reveal that there is no way a single visc oil can run well in a
>
> > modern
> > > engine because it cannot adapt from 0 degrees in winter to
> > operation
> > > internally of 250 degrees, and then switch to temps of 70
> degrees
> > to 130
> > > degrees outside driving underhood temps to 400 degrees and
> > internal temps
> > > back up to 250 degrees. And all this with an engine that is
> > designed to
> > > begin driving after only a warmup of 30 seconds.
> > >
> > > Single visc oils can be used regularly if temps are paid
> attention
> > to and
> > > the weight adjusted accordingly. Most people do not go to the
> > trouble
> > > hence the need to develop oils that adjust for you. My fear is
>
> > that since
> > > alot of our readers do not know, they will not know the
> difference
> > and
> > > that could cause an engine failure. I agree that lack of such
> > know how
> > > should be a screening tool for not allowing these people into
> the
> > air, but
> > > somehow they make it up there any how. More and more builders
> are
> > using
> > > engine combinations with modern settings, clearances and metals
>
> > and need
> > > these multi's to survive. A case in point is the use of the Geo
>
> > Metro 3
> > > and 4 cylinder engines. These engines MUST use the thinner 10w30
>
> > or 5w30
> > > oils or their valve train will fail very soon after they are put
>
> > into use,
> > > causing catastrophic failure. Their oil return holes in the
> heads
> > do not
> > > provide a large enough orifice to allow a thicker oil to
> > circulate, common
> > > among most all of the overhead cam engines. Depending on the
> > version of
> > > the vortec engine they may also have to use a multi oil to be
> > properly
> > > maintained. Single weight oils tend to be correct for too narrow
>
> > of the
> > > temp range, making the possible extremes go outside their design
>
> > range and
> > > begin breakdown.
> > >
> > > Especially in cases of engine sitting and getting part time use
>
> > the
> > > multi's are particularly necessary due to the fact that when the
>
> > oil was
> > > added it may have been summer but now is winter and a single
> visc
> > will not
> > > be able to handle the range of temps and may not pump initially
>
> > when
> > > started. Multi's will thin due to additives and circulate
> > immediately.
> > > Even looking at the popular Corvair motor, the temps it will
> > operate in is
> > > outside air maybe 60 degrees and then will be working hard
> > climbing and
> > > soaring to head temps of over 300 degrees. Single visc oils
> cannt
> > adjust
> > > for this wide variation in temps, so either you have one that
> > handles the
> > > low temp part, or the high temp, but not both. If singles could
> do
> > this,
> > > there would be no need for the multi's any more. If VW's are
> > supposed to
> > > operate similar to the Corvair, then you can see a single used
> > after
> > > breakin will sacrifice durability and longevity.
> > >
> > > Colin
> > > N96TA
> > >>
> > >> From: "Phil Matheson" <[email protected]>
> > >> Date: 2006/06/24 Sat PM 10:30:26 EDT
> > >> To: "KRnet" <[email protected]>
> > >> Subject: Re: KR> oils and stuff
> > >>
> > >> Colin Wrote :Just for the record I will say this is foolish and
>
> > >> potentially
> > >> catastrophic
> > >> ----------------------------------------------------
> > >> This is a reply from Ron Slender VW Engines,
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Phill,
> > >> I would like Colin to have a look at the article on oils I sent
>
> > you.
> > >> Agreed
> > >> that the refining processes are much more advanced from years
> > gone by
> > >> however
> > >> that applies to all viscosities of oil including single
> > viscosity.
> > >> The reality is that single viscosity oils handle a higher heat
>
> > range
> > >> better
> > >> than a multigrade.
> > >> Additionally a multigrade was primarily developed so that an
> auto
> > engine
> > >> could start at a relatively cold condition and gradually reach
>
> > operating
> > >> temperature which in most vehicles is around 160/180 degrees.
> > >>
> > >> Multigrade oils have a lot of polymers and additives to give
> the
> > oil the
> > >> viscosity but do nothing to help lubrication, in fact they
> break
> > down in
> > >> high temp conditions.
> > >>
> > >> Single viscosity can handle the higher temps better.
> Additionally
> > the oil
> > >> tends to "cling " better for cold starts much like the sticky
> > Shell oil
> > >> used
> > >> for aircraft because not all aircraft are used every day. Some
>
> > oils can
> > >> drain off providing high friction starts until oil pressure is
>
> > there.
> > >>
> > >> I believe that you have to know a lot about the environment the
>
> > aircraft
> > >> is
> > >> operating in and recommend the oil according to the
> application.
> > >> Additionally Phil's engine is basically new and oils that have
>
> > friction
> > >> modifiers and high range of viscosity will effect the running
> in
> > of that
> > >> engine.
> > >> After Phill has reached 50 hours then he make look at
> alternative
> > oil
> > >> options.
> > >> However we have used straight 30 ; 40 ; & even 50 (very hot
> > conditions)
> > >> and
> > >> the Shell oil for aircraft for air cooled engines.
> > >> We do not use multigrade because of the fear that friction
> > modifiers are
> > >> often used in these types of oils which inhibit running in.
> > >>
> > >> Colin, your article on HP and how it effects speed was very
> good
> > >> demonstrating that hotting up an engine can only increase
> overall
> > speed
> > >> marginally. Without going into elaborate equations the power
> > difference
> > >> was
> > >> 35 HP and the actual Torque increase using 2500 rpm as a
> constant
> > the
> > >> extra
> > >> Torque created by adding an extra 35 HP was only 63 ft lbs and
>
> > that was
> > >> at
> > >> full power.
> > >> Same goes for our gear drive engines. We have the Torque that
> say
> > a 100
> > >> hp
> > >> creates at 4200 , the reduction drive multiplies the Torque by
>
> > the ratio
> > >> on
> > >> top of this. As long as a respectable size prop can be used to
>
> > benefit
> > >> from
> > >> the extra Torque gain then the advantages of a reduction drive
> is
> > clear.
> > >> Because of the extra torque gain take off roll is reduced
> > particularly
> > >> when
> > >> loaded, climb out is great and cruise is probably achieved at a
>
> > lower
> > >> throttle setting because of the prop diameter and available
> > torque.
> > >> A reduction drive will not necessarily provide a higher speed
> > because
> > >> this
> > >> is a character of the aircrafts drag as Colin explains.
> > >>
> > >> The propeller has not even been discussed. Fixed pitch is a
> > compromise,
> > >> that
> > >> we all except as being the norm because anything else is
> > expensive.
> > >> Why not fit a suitable in flight adjustable propeller then you
>
> > will see
> > >> some
> > >> performance.
> > >> Trouble is the cost of one of those, but ...I would rather
> spend
> > money in
> > >> that direction then spend lots of $`s trying to squeeze out a
> few
> > extra
> > >> HP
> > >> out of an engine for very little gain.
> > >>
> > >> Not quite with you on oil Colin but I did like your thoughts on
>
> > HP and
> > >> drag.
> > >>
> > >> Ron Slender
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Phillip Matheson
> > >> 0408665880 (cell)
> > >> VHPKR
> > >> Australia.
> > >> [email protected]
> > >> NEW WEB PAGE
> > >> www.philskr2.50megs.com
> > >>
> > >> http://www.vw-engines.com/
> > >> OLD WEB PAGE
> > >> http://mywebpage.netscape.com/flyingkrphil/VHPKR.html
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________
> > >> Search the KRnet Archives at
> > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> > >> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to
> > [email protected]
> > >> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________
> > > Search the KRnet Archives at
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> > > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to
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> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________
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> > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to
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> >
> >
>
>
> Virgil N. Salisbury - AMSOIL
> www.lubedealer.com/salisbury
> Miami ,Fl
>
> _______________________________________
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