On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 1:05 AM, Harald Sitter <[email protected]> wrote: > On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 11:52 PM, Valorie Zimmerman > <[email protected]> wrote: >> Thanks for your gentle reminders to file bugs, Harald. >> >> On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 9:06 AM, Harald Sitter <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 5:58 PM, Volkan Gezer <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Mature enough? It does not seem so to me. >>>>> >>>> >>>> +1 >>>> >>>> Some problems I experience with Discover: >>>> >>>> * Closing it before POPcon result are shown in the main window causes >>>> sigfault sometimes. >>>> * Using back arrow after making a search either freezes or displays >>>> all installed applications. >>>> * Ratings does not work. (we cannot rate etc) >>>> >>>> >>>> My question is why did we remove Muon Installer? It was ok IMO. >>> >>> Because apparently discover only got buggy in the last 48 hours. Very >>> curious. >> >> However, I see your comments and feedback on >> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=329800 and that seems the bug >> that bites me. >> >> Searching bugs.kde.org for "muon discover" reveals lots of crashes and >> freezes. > > All software has bugs, and the volume of reports for discover in > particular is not actually overwhelming. So since the only hard metric > we have right now (to be changed starting with 14.04) are bug reports > I have to say that all the data suggests discover has at least > adequate quality. That is not to say that it did not have show > stoppers, but I think just about all of them have been resolved in > like a week after reporting. And that is the crucial thing really, > unless crashes and the likes are vigorously reported as bugs it is > nigh impossible to label a defect as high impact and thus worthy of > asap handling. > > That sounds a bit silly but bear in mind that we are working with > limited resources (<=24h/person/day) and therefore I personally do not > consider it practical or efficient to have developers treat every > crash as super important or troll the internet to find out whether a > crash/bug has gotten sufficient whining on forums etc. to be > considered for immediate fixing. So at least I hold on to the metrics > I've got, which are bug reports and the amount of attention a bug gets > (amount of incoming duplicates, amount of comments and so forth). If > there is no indication that a bug will/does impact a sizable number of > people or has other factors that would qualify it as important, it > does not get the attention that it needs which results in unhappy > people and unhappy comments about the software and finally in unhappy > developers because people do not like their software. > > It's a poison trap that can easily be averted by reporting bugs and in > general constructive discourse about issues. Every KDE application has > a built-in functionality to do just that; in the menubar -> Help -> > Report Bug... but if it is not used, all is vain. > > Why do the discover comments bug me so much you may ask yourself and > the answer is very simply that it most certainly has not suddenly > gotten quality issues in the past week. They have been there all > along, and no one bothered to do anything about them... and yes, > reporting a bug is very much doing something about it. > > What transpired was: A transition from muon-installer to muon-discover > was publically targeted for 13.10 [1]. In fact I explicitly pushed for > early implementation of the necessary changes to have enough time for > testing *before* feature freeze so we could have reverted back to > muon-installer well before the final release of 13.10. Due to lack of > quality control measures (being addressed progressively since then) > and lack of actual feedback of any kind before the final, less than > adequate quality was released and many tears were shed once we > noticed. We then fired numerous updates to resolve the situation > [2][3][4]. > > This should not have happened. It just shouldn't have. There was no > reason for this to happen. Early september JR sent a mail about the > muon quality saying that all was nice and dandy - no one raised > concerns. And in november, *after* release, people then start to > complain? Why? I absolutely do not understand this. If people do not > feel the need to do pre-release testing, then we might as well stop > doing the pre-release nonsense, and instead spend our last bit of > remaining sanity on manually executing tedious test plans to ensure > the software we ship is actually release quality. > > Usually I would not care about this post-release-issue-creep-nonsense > (as can be observed on web forums every time after a final release has > come out, as if we had developed the thing in secret and now everyone > is surprised that there are issues that could not possibly have been > catched before release). But when it happens on the mailing list that > calls itself kubuntu-devel I do take personal offense. I do believe > everyone here has an interest in producing a high quality product and > to that end should do what needs to be done (e.g. take the pre-release > for a test drive and report bugs at least once in the 6 months we > spend preparing a new version). That did not happen so now you get > deal with a sad pandalogger. > > tldr: always report bugs; for everything; if the reports don't get > attention: complain on this here mailing list; if complaining doesn't > help: tell apachelogger. > > [1] https://trello.com/c/DplmVapI > [2] https://trello.com/c/CSivV2uq > [3] https://trello.com/c/W2OQ339e > [4] https://trello.com/c/EUHfjxSC > > HS
I'm hanging my head in shame, here. It's true, we need to "eat our own dogfood" and then bark about the flavor if necessary. Mea culpa. Valorie -- http://about.me/valoriez -- kubuntu-devel mailing list [email protected] Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel
