That is the point of my sending this out. Thank you.
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: Jay Brophy
To: Michael Novick ; Ed Pearl ; LAAMN
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: [LAAMN] Re: Not again, Old testament Christians
This god the god of Abraham the god of all three of these religions is a
warlike god through his actions and his word. In Deuteronomy he shows himself
to be a fanatical nationalist,who orders his army of followers to commit
genocide and through his powers makes it possible for them to do so against
nations or tribes which outnumber his chosen people. He admits he is a jealous
god and demonstrates the extent he is willing to go to wipe out belief in other
gods by advocating genocide and his chosen people committ it in his name. He
appears to be a homicidal maniac. It should come as no surprise that the
followers are also warlike, homicidal and genocidal, Hitler was a christian.
There are Jewish people in possession of the land that god is supposed to have
given them through war and plunder and feel they must possess it if there
messiah is to come and redeem them. They are surrounded by hostile nations who
seek to destroy them! and bring about a world where everyone will bow down and
pray to there version of this god. There are christians in the White House who
believe in an end of time prophosie that the world will be destroyed by this
god using fire. He already consumed the world once by water. These christians
are allied with the jews who will go to any extent to possess this land
including assassinating the prime minister of their own nation if he dare try
to give up one foor of their perceived holy land. There are muslims possessed
of the hate of their god who will settle for nothing short of destroying the
jewish state and driving all of the jews into the Meditteranian sea through
holy war justified by scripture. All of these religions have nuclear bombs or
countries that possess them and may be willing to destroy the world in order to
prove they are the one true religion. I have little use for either the state
or religion and I have no desire to die or s! ee the end of the world.
Therefore I feel people like me have a right to be critical of these religions
without being accused of being anti semitic or heathens or pagans or whatever.
I am not advocating doing anything to prevent anyone from worshiping any god, I
am advocating a right to object vigirously to the murderous conduct of these
religion's followers in the name of their god. I would like to suggest we have
a free and open dialogue concerning what I perceive as possibly death cults
ruling the world and possessing weapon of mass destruction. I also object to
patriarchy, homophobia and misogyny all of which are advocated and practiced by
all three of these religions. They may have a right to worship but I have a
right to speak about what I perceive to be a very large threat to the future of
humanity and this planet and I don't want to be labeled or skapegoatted for
doing so. Jay
Michael Novick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I just saw an article on another list serve, the Anti-Fascist Information
Bulletin, criticizing the Republicans in the Schiavo case for what it
called the "Islamization" of the GOP. I find it odd that people want to lay
off the ills of Christian fascist fundamentalism on "the Hebrews" or the
Muslims. My right "not to like" the Jesus dialogue is not what is in
question -- it is the politics of the piece. I have plenty of readers,
friends and relatives who are Christians, and I think "Who would Jesus
bomb?" is a wonderful ironic slogan. But when I see a piece that purports
to be about peace say "The ancient Hebrew scriptures say that God is an
angry God, a vengeful God, a jealous God. But he is not" my hackles go up.
It is not necessary to dismiss, diminish or distort Jewish religious
beliefs to critique Bush's claims to be a good Christian, when he is in
fact a hypocritical, power hungry war criminal and mass murderer. When
Christians start saying things that sound suspiciously like "the Jewish god
is not really god," that doesn't seem conducive to enlightenment,
tolerance, or a willingness to live and let live. I am not making any case
here in favor of either god or Judaism; I am saying believers of any
religion need to "own" the crimes committed in the name of that religion.
I'd be interested in hearing some Christians speak about this, or other
people of faith (my politics are not faith-based). I'm not trying to be
snippy or hostile or "cause divisions." I am an anti-Zionist, and often get
accused of being a "self-hating Jew" or an anti-Semite myself, and I'm not
trying to bait Ed or anyone else. But doesn't anybody else find putting
such words in Jesus's mouth troubling?
At 03:46 PM 3/23/2005 -0800, Ed Pearl wrote:
>My daily emaili! ng goes to a wide variety of people, including Christians
who
>in turn, likely know people who would appreciate this or think about their
>own values as a result.
>These connections are part of my politics and I'm happy to pass them on. I
>believe at least some who get LAAMN appreciated reading it. Novick has the
>right not to like it.
>Ed Pearl
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Michael Novick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[email protected]>
>Cc: "Ed Pearl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 10:47 AM
>Subject: Not again, Old testament Christians
>
>
>I know it's Easter and all, but this is getting ridiculous. I thought
>people might have seen my comments when Frank Dorrel circulated this
>widely, but here it is again from Ed Pearl
>
> >Minister: But the President is a Christian. He has dedicate! d his life
> >to serving you.
> >
> >Jesus: He has dedicated his life to serving himself. That is the
> >opposite of what I teach.
> >
> >Minister: But he's a Christian.
> >
> >Jesus: He is an Old Testament Christian. The ancient Hebrew scriptures
> >say that God is an angry God, a vengeful God, a jealous God. But he is
> >not. Nor is he petty, nor vindictive, nor narrow minded, nor
>self-righteous.
>
>It's nice to know that the ancient Hebrews are to blame for George W. Bush.
>Here all along I think his vindictive, narrow-minded self-righteousness had
>something to do with his being emperor of the greatest war machine in the
>history of humanity, and might culturally have something to do with a
>history
>of Crusades, Christian soldiers, holy wars and the linkage of organized
>Christianity to Empire since the third century.
>
>Look, Judaism has plenty to answer for in its own right. Maybe the god of
>those ancient scriptures is a bit schizophrenic (because occasionally, they
>do describe god as the all-merciful, a god of loving-kindness and
>forgiveness,
>as well as stern, angry and jealous). But Christianity has plenty to answer
>for in its own right, too. There is no such thing as an "Old Testament
>Christian."
>Jews believe in the Torah and other scriptures; Christians believe that
>Jesus
>brought a new gospel that superceded what they then called the Old
Testament
>to indicate that it no longer held currency. Muslims believe Abraham,
Moses,
>Jesus, and Muhammad were all prophets of the same god. Practitioners of
>all three monotheistic religions (as of many other polytheistic and other
>religions) have committed both great crimes and great deeds in the name
>of their faith and their god! (s). The "Golden Rule" exists in all faiths
and
>moral
>systems known. The "ancient Hebrew scriptures," long before Jesus,
expressed
>it as "ve-ahovta l'rai-akha ca-mokha" -- love your neighbor as yourself.
>Believers
>in Jesus will have to take responsibility for the totality of their
>religion in its own
>right, and for the crimes committed in its name, and not foist them off on
>the
>"ancient Hebrews," just as Jews must do the same.
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