"So, unless the grid units are twice as long as it they are wide (a very shallow working angle of about 34 degrees) there will more worker threads than passive threads." Yes - this is very possible with some of the old laces or some of the more irregular patterns requiring infill. Karen
-----Original Message----- From: Brenda Paternoster [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:25 PM To: Karen Cc: arachne Arachne Subject: Re: [lace] silk thread, and measuring in reverse Hello Karen > I beg to try to straighten out some of the ideas discussed here. In > Maltese lace, it is not absolutely necessary to have the Maltese > cross, especially with ecclesiastical lace (made for priests' > vestments and for use in churches). Yes, I understand that, but even if made to commission and for a fee ecclesiastical lace is unlikely be sold in the tourist shops. > Also, you cannot really count threads etc, because most of the early > patterns were worked on a handmade grid which was not necessarily > even. (I know because I have just finished a centrepiece worked from a > very old pattern). There are times when we are filling in motifs with > cloth stitch when we may put in extra rows to bulk out a piece or to > carry pairs to the side where we need to use them next. The nature of cloth stitch worked on any sort of grid is such that the worker pair travels across and down one unit of the grid and then back horizontally without going down. Thus there are four threads filling one unit of depth. This compares to one pair of threads for each grid unit across the width of the lace, ie two threads per grid unit. So, unless the grid units are twice as long as it they are wide (a very shallow working angle of about 34 degrees) there will more worker threads than passive threads. Adding an extra row of cloth stitch to bulk out an area that looks sparse will add extra threads to the depth without adding any to the width. Bunching passive pairs to the side will have the effect of reducing the number of passives in the main cloth stitch area without reducing the number of worker threads. Much the same effect on the ratio of worker:passive threads. I do agree with you in saying that the more floral/less geometric a piece of lace is the less easy it becomes to assess the numbers of passive or worker threads in an area of cloth stitch. > As for the shape of the leaves, these differ from lacemaker to > lacemaker. Of course they do, as they do in Beds or Cluny or any other lace that has petals in it. > Now, with modern lace work, we tend to use lots of techniques taken > from other laces as well. That's true of all modern forms of lace too. Brenda > Karen in Malta > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Brenda Paternoster > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 11:30 AM > To: Alice Howell > Cc: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [lace] silk thread, and measuring in reverse > > Hello Alice > > No I haven't tried working out the thread size from a finished item! > > Cloth stitch should have 4 threads between pinholes measured > vertically but only 2 threads between them if measured horizontally. > Look at any thread diagram to confirm this. > > In torchon it means that in cloth stitch the worker threads are much > closer together than the passive threads, but the variable working > angles of Maltese, and especially Cluny may well reduce the > difference. > > I've been told that all Maltese lace made for sale (on Malta) is > required to incorporate the Maltese/St John cross, but anything made > for the lacemaker's own use/family does not have to include the cross > even if everything else is 'Maltese' in design. > > Maltese lace is a sort of Cluny/torchon mix. Sometimes the regular > grid of torchon is most prominent with fancy grounds but mostly it's > the plaits and petals that are the most important design feature. > Maltese has fat petals (often lots of them) with cloth stitch > crossings. > Cluny petals are slimmer and crossings are usually done with paired > threads. > From my own collection of bits and pieces I can say that Cluny may > have a 9-pin edge but the nearest to that that you find in Maltese is > single plait at the edge with evidence of a pin where it changes > direction, but not a proper picot. > > Brenda > > >> Has anyone tried to figure a thread size from a finished item? I >> tried it on my collar with this result. >> >> Figuring that the tightest clothwork area would be a bit similar to >> the spacing of a thread wrap, I counted several different areas, >> vertically and horizontally. >> >> In this case, I consistently got 10 or 11 rows or columns per >> centimeter. That would translate to 20-22 threads per c. In >> "Threads for Lace", that size could be Gutermann 40/3, Piper Twisted >> Gloss 90/9 or 40/3, Piper silk Gimp 40/3 or 45/3, Mulberry Silks >> 70/3. >> >> This gives me a place to start. >> >> The other puzzle is whether this collar is really Maltese. It was >> labeled Maltese from the lace dealer I got it from. However, I'm >> beginning to wonder if it really is Cluny. It seems to have features >> of both laces, but that's not unusual since the two laces are in the >> same family. >> >> It's also missing some of the distinctive features of Maltese. I >> thought at first that it might have an Art Nouveau influence on the >> design. That might explain the design differences. >> >> Before someone else asks, no...I cannot send a scan of it. I haven't >> learned how to do that yet. If I get a friend to scan it, I'll let >> you know. >> > > Brenda in Allhallows, Kent > http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/index.html > > - > To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: > unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.413 / Virus Database: 268.18.7/710 - Release Date: > 04/03/2007 > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.413 / Virus Database: 268.18.7/710 - Release Date: > 04/03/2007 > > > Brenda in Allhallows, Kent http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.413 / Virus Database: 268.18.7/710 - Release Date: 04/03/2007 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. 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