Hoi,
In that case they can advise us.. No reason not to consider it.
Thanks,
GerardM
On Wed, 4 Sep 2019 at 17:14, Steven White <[email protected]> wrote:
> Steward Revi wrote:
>
> In my personal opinion, We the Stewards are only authorized to act on a
> community consensus and are not responsible to decide whether WMF
> principles, practices, and/or rules are violated.
>
> (Again, I am not speaking on behalf of Stewards, just my POV.)
>
> On the whole, this is true. However, the stewards are authorized to decide
> on their own whether short-term emergency intervention is warranted in an
> individual project. And the stewards, more than the Board or T&S, are
> traveling around different projects looking at things and seeing what's
> going on. At minimum, if the stewards see something that seems to be
> substantially and clearly outside of norms, at minimum they are in a
> position to report it to T&S and the Board, and in practice, if necessary,
> they can make a short-term intervention. But I will quickly concede that
> the latter possibility only kicks in when there are truly dire
> circumstances in play.
>
> Steven
>
>
> Sent from Outlook <http://aka.ms/weboutlook>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Langcom <[email protected]> on behalf of
> [email protected] <[email protected]>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 4, 2019 11:00 AM
> *To:* [email protected] <[email protected]>
> *Subject:* Langcom Digest, Vol 71, Issue 5
>
> Send Langcom mailing list submissions to
> [email protected]
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>
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> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Croatian Wikipedia (Steven White)
> 2. Re: Croatian Wikipedia (Steven White)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2019 14:55:03 +0000
> From: Steven White <[email protected]>
> To: "WMF LangCom (public)" <[email protected]>
> Subject: [Langcom] Croatian Wikipedia
> Message-ID:
> <
> bn8pr04mb635652dc8d3b1e8455053dd99e...@bn8pr04mb6356.namprd04.prod.outlook.com
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> The former Yugoslavia is one of the most difficult spots in the entire WMF
> universe.
>
> If we were starting from scratch right now, the tradeoff, as always, would
> be whether Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian and Montenegrin are different enough
> to warrant separate projects, or whether a single Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia
> could cover the whole ground. The current policy has potentially
> contradictory biases. On one hand, there is a bias TOWARD projects in
> individual languages, and AWAY from projects in macrolanguages. (In this
> case, Serbo-Croatian is a macrolanguage, and the others are considered
> constituent languages of that macrolanguage.) On the other hand, there is a
> bias TOWARD consolidated projects where the languages are mutually
> comprehensible, both to help prevent POV bias and to reduce unnecessary
> duplication. I frankly don't know which way we'd go if we were starting
> from scratch now.
>
> (Technical interlude: the Cyrillic-Latin converters work just fine. That
> does not need to be a consideration for any of this.)
>
> But in any event, we most assuredly are not starting from scratch. Each of
> these projects already has a community, a political point of view, and a
> bias. Those conflict IRL, and they conflict here, too. Again, if we were
> starting from scratch, there would be at least a fighting chance of setting
> up neutral ground rules in a Serbo-Croatian project. But we're not, and the
> ground rules and communities are already well established. Given the
> current conditions, I think the following questions, and the following
> questions only, are within the purview of LangCom:
>
> 1. Do we shut down all three individual projects, and require
> everything to be consolidated into Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia? (I recommend
> against this. There would be constant content wars, almost impossible to
> regulate, that would take energy away from the routine business of creating
> the encyclopedia. The communities would scream bloody murder. But if we
> want to go there, I want a Board vote on that, not just our vote.)
> 2. Do we shut down Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia as redundant (which it
> basically is), making sure that appropriate content goes to one or more of
> the other projects? (We could put up a trial proposal on Meta and see what
> people say.)
> 3. Do we let all of of these operate in parallel as they are now?
> (Action by inaction)
> 4. Do we allow a Montenegrin Wikipedia? (As people know, I favor this.
> If #2 above were to happen, I think we'd really have to allow this. If #3
> happens, in theory you could say that Montenegrin is part of Serbo-Croatian
> and can contribute there. But Serbians still control that project, and the
> Montenegrin POV is routinely ignored or overturned. So in any world where
> the three grandfathered parallel projects [Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian]
> exist, one has to concede that the rule on parallel projects is already not
> in force in the world of Serbo-Croatian, and therefore allowing a
> Montenegrin project simply allows a Montenegrin POV the same footing the
> others already have.)
>
> Any other question, such as whether Croatian Wikipedia currently so
> violates WMF's overarching practices, principles and rules for
> intervention, is something for the stewards, T&S and the Board.
>
> Steven
>
>
> Sent from Outlook<
> https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fweboutlook&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625248484&sdata=MToJlBu5B%2BqX2WV%2Fvkmu4SH2FxfQVHpbZFBdSeflUEo%3D&reserved=0
> >
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2019 15:00:36 +0000
> From: Steven White <[email protected]>
> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [Langcom] Croatian Wikipedia
> Message-ID:
> <
> bn8pr04mb63564b37e47a6a22b29878479e...@bn8pr04mb6356.namprd04.prod.outlook.com
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Gerard wrote:
>
> Hoi,
> When the language committee takes the lead and decides one way or the
> other, it makes a recommendation to the board of trustees. Ultimately the
> decision is theirs. We do not need to consider that this is a situation
> where nobody was willing to act.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> Just for the record, this is disingenuous. This position is only formally
> true in the case of project creations, and only slightly more realistically
> true in the case of project closures and deletions. Basically, the Board
> has delegated these responsibilities to this Committee. (We don't even have
> to notify the Board officially of project creations any more, only of
> closures.) Unless the Board actively intervenes, it takes this Committee's
> action (or inaction) as the official WMF position on a question.
>
> Steven
>
>
> Sent from Outlook<
> https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fweboutlook&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625248484&sdata=MToJlBu5B%2BqX2WV%2Fvkmu4SH2FxfQVHpbZFBdSeflUEo%3D&reserved=0
> >
>
> ________________________________
> From: Langcom <[email protected]> on behalf of
> [email protected] <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, September 2, 2019 5:50 AM
> To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
> Subject: Langcom Digest, Vol 71, Issue 3
>
> Send Langcom mailing list submissions to
> [email protected]
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>
> https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.wikimedia.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flangcom&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625248484&sdata=F7dOwVHvP6g4Fv%2BTgfOmb%2FAcUtULWSHRtlbqAr5t0xQ%3D&reserved=0
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> [email protected]
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> [email protected]
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Langcom digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Croatian Wikipedia (Ilario Valdelli)
> 2. Re: Croatian Wikipedia (Gerard Meijssen)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2019 09:40:28 +0000
> From: Ilario Valdelli <[email protected]>
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee
> <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [Langcom] Croatian Wikipedia
> Message-ID:
> <
> vi1p192mb01579bbb7802b8cedba77cb6dd...@vi1p192mb0157.eurp192.prod.outlook.com
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> My 2 cents
>
> As I know Serbian uses cyrillic Chars while Croatian use neolatin.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Get Outlook for Android<
> https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fghei36&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625248484&sdata=9eyQn%2Fm90vNouLPzuZhdwMhNc5PdkLUyNSuw%2BmdC5I8%3D&reserved=0
> >
>
> ________________________________
> From: Langcom <[email protected]> on behalf of James
> Heilman <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, September 2, 2019 11:06:19 AM
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [Langcom] Croatian Wikipedia
>
> And would it be true that if Croatian was to apply now they would be
> denied as Serbian already exists?
>
> James
>
> On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 3:00 AM Ilario Valdelli <[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> Speaking with a Serbian of another association, there not a significant
> difference between the two languages.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Get Outlook for Android<
> https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fghei36&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625258489&sdata=aouRMnvUt0uHGjjgLGcycVKpDXFrI2k5uw0rkpn51XY%3D&reserved=0
> >
>
> ________________________________
> From: Langcom <[email protected]<mailto:
> [email protected]>> on behalf of James Heilman <
> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
> Sent: Monday, September 2, 2019 9:43:24 AM
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee <[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>>
> Subject: Re: [Langcom] Croatian Wikipedia
>
> One question, we have Crotian and Serbo-Croatian... How significant is the
> difference?
>
> J
>
> On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 12:43 AM Amir E. Aharoni <
> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> The Stewards, indeed, sound like the first people to talk to about this.
>
> The Language committee should be about the languages themselves, and not
> so much about what is said in them.
>
> --
> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
>
> https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faharoni.wordpress.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625258489&sdata=D%2FCWjJaL8YTMpR4snBFw2GiDOIzEpfrt3YXSh8X4oGs%3D&reserved=0
> “We're living in pieces,
> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
>
>
> בתאריך יום ב׳, 2 בספט׳ 2019 ב-9:34 מאת Gerard Meijssen <
> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>:
> Hoi,
> We could. However, we are not the best positioned group to do so. The
> stewards come to mind. The trust and safety committee.. but to be honest
> the board of trustees is the organisation that indicates the importance of
> these issues, has a responsibility to us as a movement and it can direct
> the WMF to do whatever.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> On Mon, 2 Sep 2019 at 07:25, James Heilman <[email protected]<mailto:
> [email protected]>> wrote:
> Wondering if this group would be interested in bringing forwards a
> proposal?
>
> This was just published
> https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FWikipedia%3AWikipedia_Signpost%2F2019-08-30%2FOpinion&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625258489&sdata=Od72yaS5NXVHq0Ov%2Fx44nrWOvfm0aZtrixc%2FG4PmnRY%3D&reserved=0
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> _______________________________________________
> Langcom mailing list
> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
>
> https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.wikimedia.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flangcom&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625258489&sdata=1r0NdtPsQ1hREKoZ7JayV%2FkKlSw4mceG1I6XhizY9Qs%3D&reserved=0
> _______________________________________________
> Langcom mailing list
> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
>
> https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.wikimedia.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flangcom&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625258489&sdata=1r0NdtPsQ1hREKoZ7JayV%2FkKlSw4mceG1I6XhizY9Qs%3D&reserved=0
> _______________________________________________
> Langcom mailing list
> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
>
> https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.wikimedia.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flangcom&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625258489&sdata=1r0NdtPsQ1hREKoZ7JayV%2FkKlSw4mceG1I6XhizY9Qs%3D&reserved=0
>
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> _______________________________________________
> Langcom mailing list
> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
>
> https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.wikimedia.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flangcom&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625258489&sdata=1r0NdtPsQ1hREKoZ7JayV%2FkKlSw4mceG1I6XhizY9Qs%3D&reserved=0
>
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> -------------- next part --------------
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2019 11:50:00 +0200
> From: Gerard Meijssen <[email protected]>
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee
> <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [Langcom] Croatian Wikipedia
> Message-ID:
> <CAO53wxUSHJZdE1Dxr_AW-CmcOCmAmyep9Km=
> [email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hoi,
> When the language committee takes the lead and decides one way or the
> other, it makes a recommendation to the board of trustees. Ultimately the
> decision is theirs. We do not need to consider that this is a situation
> where nobody was willing to act.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> On Mon, 2 Sep 2019 at 09:30, Ilario Valdelli <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > I think that the problem is so serious and it exists for long time that a
> > single committee cannot do a lot eventi if it does not concern their
> tasks.
> >
> > Anyways it has been communicated several times and if it remains the
> > solution has never been taken.
> >
> > Kind regards
> >
> > Get Outlook for Android <
> https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fghei36&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625268497&sdata=WDUswRF4rmQuR6c8hNZlA9yPhceuIApxrgSUeC7xxp4%3D&reserved=0
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > *From:* Langcom <[email protected]> on behalf of James
> > Heilman <[email protected]>
> > *Sent:* Monday, September 2, 2019 7:25:01 AM
> > *To:* Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee <
> [email protected]
> > >
> > *Subject:* [Langcom] Croatian Wikipedia
> >
> > Wondering if this group would be interested in bringing forwards a
> > proposal?
> >
> > This was just published
> >
> https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FWikipedia%3AWikipedia_Signpost%2F2019-08-30%2FOpinion&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625268497&sdata=Ime6AnCrWZDh9GuOjQPqD7KJZNTSnjyUAys7jafoBvQ%3D&reserved=0
> >
> >
> > --
> > James Heilman
> > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > _______________________________________________
> > Langcom mailing list
> > [email protected]
> >
> https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.wikimedia.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flangcom&data=02%7C01%7C%7C326e84df7f7a468a4e5508d73148b37f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637032060625268497&sdata=nQx5p3IaFpYYr3nOmTFUnYlQUnfLqgJWohpnoUT4VWE%3D&reserved=0
> >
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
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>
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Langcom Digest, Vol 71, Issue 3
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
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>
> End of Langcom Digest, Vol 71, Issue 5
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>
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