I dont think I can asnwer this question, my i suggest to write the wikitravel or wikipeida articles and then to send them to the companies to comment on. Or write to thel. first. mike
On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 4:38 PM, Andrei Klochko <transportspl...@gmail.com> wrote: > The problem is, many people, even lawyers, told me that "using timetables", > or "using the gps to recreate transportation maps", or even "use a > transportation map to extract the data about the transport lines, and > nothing else", would be "without problem". And then, I got the answer of > Francis Davey, who told me that at least in England, there wold be great > chances that timetables would be considered "intellectual creations", and > hence, without the need of a sui generis database right, which is actually > probably not applicable here, these timetables - and probably, also the > plans, and hence position of the stops, etc - won't be usable on any site > without authorization of their owner. So the "apparently, there would be no > problem" answer, was wrong. So, I cannot satisfy of a "there should not be > any problem": Ok, in the US it may be demonstrated, but still, I would like > to know which articles, cases, etc... And this is why I asked about such > minimalistic things, as one geographical point, the name of the company, the > number of lines. I thought, maybe on this, I could get a definite answer > from a lawyer here. > But ok, I knew what was told to me: I have to ask a lawyer directly to get > all my definite answers. Then I will start an import/export company, or > anything to gather 20000 dollars, and then ask a lawyer, with the assurance > to have this definite answer, opposable to any company that would complain > about what data I "stole" from them. > > And here, the point is not about putting some data about one single company, > on wikipedia: it is about importing, using an automated web crawler like > google does for its searches, tons and tons of data about tons and tons of > companies, while knowing that the data I am importing, is absolutely > certain to be free of use. Because, as always, transit companies would wake > up only when the amount of overall collected data would make the financial > compensations and penalties, huge, and I do not want that! > Andrei > > > 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont <jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com> >> >> In usa facts are not copyrightable. The facts about the transport are >> allowed to be put into the wikipedia, if it is notable that is another >> issue. Youc an also make a wikibook.org about the transportation in >> france. I dont see why it would be a problem. >> mike >> >> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Andrei Klochko >> <transportspl...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > Do I have the right to add this info like that? I know that wikipedia is >> > more like a "journalistic" thing, so you are more free to put whatever >> > you >> > want, but still, I do not know precisely any applicable law in here! >> > And besides, you know, I think albatrans would hardly notice any changes >> > in >> > a particular wikipedia, or wikitravel article...they may only notice it >> > one >> > day, maybe only two years later...and probably they would never notice >> > anything. I would have liked someone that would know applicable law to >> > tell >> > me if I legally can or not! >> > Andrei >> > >> > 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont <jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com> >> >> >> >> I found a reference to albatrans here, >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stations_of_the_Paris_RER >> >> >> >> just add this information to wikipedia. >> >> >> >> see also here : >> >> http://wikitravel.org/en/Paris#Get_around >> >> >> >> just add all the information you can there and we will see what >> >> happens. >> >> mike >> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Andrei Klochko >> >> <transportspl...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > Hi, >> >> > what did you mean by "the agency"? What I said was not specific about >> >> > one >> >> > agency. I used my example in portugal only for illustration. And >> >> > neither >> >> > did >> >> > I talk here about schedules: I let that part of the problem go, until >> >> > I >> >> > have >> >> > 20000 dollars to ask that question properly to lawyers that could >> >> > give >> >> > me a >> >> > definite answer for several countries in the world. No the problem is >> >> > no >> >> > more about schedules. >> >> > My question was only, wether we can use: >> >> > - the name of the company to identify it, and if possible, their web >> >> > site's >> >> > adress >> >> > - the adress of its headquarters OR the city in which it has the most >> >> > lines, >> >> > to position it on a map, >> >> > - and the total amount and average class of transport (urban, >> >> > interurban, >> >> > etc) of operated transport lines, to give a hint about the company's >> >> > importance, and radius of operation. That's all! >> >> > Maybe a concrete example would help: consider: >> >> > - Albatrans, web site http://www.albatrans.net/ >> >> > - headquarters: 48 Cours Blaise Pascal 91004 EVRY cedex (not visible >> >> > on >> >> > their site, but on another site, >> >> > http://www.optile.com/adherents/index.html >> >> > ); and "barycentre of their lines" = around Arpajon, lat/lon= >> >> > 48.590243,2.248542 , and radius of operation = 25 to 30 kilometers. >> >> > These >> >> > two (and only these two) last pieces of info were "extracted" from >> >> > their >> >> > transport map available on their site, I admit it. >> >> > - exactly 10 lines, interurban to departmental class, as can be seen >> >> > on >> >> > their page: http://www.albatrans.net/ -> then hit "nos lignes" (not >> >> > a >> >> > separate web adress) >> >> > >> >> > I gave this example here, because this company happens to be >> >> > precisely >> >> > the >> >> > type of company that would never answer to anyone: they are part of >> >> > the >> >> > few >> >> > ones that are not on itransports.fr; I called them several times, >> >> > over >> >> > six >> >> > months, without being able to pass the welcoming secretary, even to >> >> > get >> >> > any >> >> > commercial representative, not speaking of the director, of course. >> >> > As >> >> > you >> >> > may see, on their web site the don't even display the position of >> >> > their >> >> > headquarters, hiding it behind a post box, probably so as not to >> >> > recieve >> >> > too >> >> > much visits from unhappy people. This is precisely the kind of >> >> > company, >> >> > I >> >> > want to break: I would like to display at least something about them, >> >> > without them being able to complain. >> >> > So, what part of the previously mentionned data (name, adress of >> >> > headquarters/barycentre of transport network, radius of operation, >> >> > and >> >> > amount and class of their lines), am I legally authorized to display >> >> > on >> >> > transiki, according to French law or British law, or any other law, >> >> > without >> >> > having to ask permission to do so? >> >> > Thanks >> >> > Andrei >> >> > PS: was that more specific than my previous message? >> >> > 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont <jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com> >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi, >> >> >> I would suggest that the devil is in the details, please be >> >> >> specific. >> >> >> my I suggest that you write a wikipeidia article about the agency >> >> >> or >> >> >> wikitravel page about the timeplan/schedule and I will review it. >> >> >> mike >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Andrei Klochko >> >> >> <transportspl...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> > Hello again, >> >> >> > This time, no weird things. I thinked a little about the whole >> >> >> > transit >> >> >> > data >> >> >> > stuff, and I had an idea: if we think of the very minimalistic set >> >> >> > of >> >> >> > things, that someone willing to go to a "lost" place needs to know >> >> >> > to >> >> >> > succeed in planning his trip (I especially think of very lost >> >> >> > places, >> >> >> > far in >> >> >> > the countryside), then maybe, the "operating centre" (say, >> >> >> > headquarters' >> >> >> > adress), and at least the welcome page of the website, of >> >> >> > "surrounding" >> >> >> > transit agencies, would still be a good start for that. If, by >> >> >> > clicking >> >> >> > a >> >> >> > place, any user could have access to this minimalistic set of data >> >> >> > about >> >> >> > surrounding transit agencies, then at least he would know where to >> >> >> > search >> >> >> > the remaining data he needs to plan his trip. I am thinking here >> >> >> > of a >> >> >> > trip I >> >> >> > made to portugal last summer, and about my endless search for a >> >> >> > transit >> >> >> > agency that would cover a specific place, 30km west of Lisbon >> >> >> > (West >> >> >> > Birre >> >> >> > and Murches, for those who know), and I found everything about >> >> >> > what >> >> >> > was >> >> >> > just >> >> >> > 8km east or further of that point, but nothing closer, no matter >> >> >> > how >> >> >> > hard I >> >> >> > searched for it. If only I had known the names of the transit >> >> >> > agencies >> >> >> > that >> >> >> > operated on that specific place, or at least around there (but as >> >> >> > much >> >> >> > of >> >> >> > them as possible, ideally all of them!) then when searching "their >> >> >> > name" >> >> >> > + >> >> >> > if necessary the names of surrounding cities, on google, I might >> >> >> > have >> >> >> > found >> >> >> > something. And then, if any data concerning these agencies were >> >> >> > available on >> >> >> > the internet (even by some local people that would have put these >> >> >> > timetables >> >> >> > on a local site, not belonging to the transit agency: this is not >> >> >> > our >> >> >> > problem!), I would have found the reamaining information I needed >> >> >> > : >> >> >> > plan, >> >> >> > and timetable, without anybody violating any copyright or database >> >> >> > right. >> >> >> > The problem of transit agencies who do not have a web site is >> >> >> > another >> >> >> > concern, as for that it falls back to the issue of true transit >> >> >> > data >> >> >> > and >> >> >> > the >> >> >> > necessity of an authorization to reproduce it (if the data about >> >> >> > their >> >> >> > lines >> >> >> > isn't available at all on the internet, then without the >> >> >> > authorization >> >> >> > you >> >> >> > could link to nowhere, neither could you take pictures and extract >> >> >> > anything >> >> >> > from them to put it on the internet, without proper authorization; >> >> >> > and >> >> >> > unless the positions of the bus stops, acquired by means of a gps, >> >> >> > are >> >> >> > free >> >> >> > to use (which, I guess, we still cannot decide for sure), then I >> >> >> > think, >> >> >> > based on what was said earlier, that we can do nothing about this >> >> >> > problem >> >> >> > yet.) >> >> >> > >> >> >> > So, I would like to know: is it possible, without asking any >> >> >> > permission, >> >> >> > to >> >> >> > put at least one geographical point about a transit agency, on the >> >> >> > osm >> >> >> > (or >> >> >> > transiki) map, weither it be the adress of its headquarters or the >> >> >> > barycentre of their transport network, and, say, the number >> >> >> > (amount) >> >> >> > of >> >> >> > their lines?The total amount of lines a company operates, and if >> >> >> > possible, >> >> >> > the average distance each line runs on, would be useful to know in >> >> >> > order >> >> >> > to >> >> >> > decide, for example, wether you include a transit agency in a >> >> >> > search >> >> >> > related >> >> >> > to one point on the map, or not. It would give a hint about its >> >> >> > transport >> >> >> > network's "radius" of operation, "how far it can reach", more or >> >> >> > less. >> >> >> > Also, >> >> >> > you could simply classify transit agencies in different >> >> >> > categories: >> >> >> > urban, >> >> >> > interurban, regional, national, if it happens that "average line >> >> >> > length" >> >> >> > is >> >> >> > still too much data to be free of use. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > And also, is it always possible to link to a website's front page >> >> >> > without >> >> >> > asking permission to the site's owner? >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I'm asking here about minimalistic things, I mean, there must at >> >> >> > least >> >> >> > be >> >> >> > something you could systematicly say about all transit agencies, >> >> >> > wether >> >> >> > they agree with it or not, on transiki, and possibly, without any >> >> >> > strong >> >> >> > dependancy to the local country's law...and if the headquarters' >> >> >> > adress >> >> >> > is >> >> >> > still not a free piece of data you can add without asking, then >> >> >> > find >> >> >> > another >> >> >> > relevant set of coordinates. At least something! >> >> >> > >> >> >> > And what about quoting the name itself of the transit agency? >> >> >> > Isn't >> >> >> > it >> >> >> > using >> >> >> > a trademark on a third party website without authorization of the >> >> >> > owner >> >> >> > of >> >> >> > the trademark? I would say no based on the fact that google seems >> >> >> > to >> >> >> > have >> >> >> > the authorization to display almost anything about a company when >> >> >> > you >> >> >> > search >> >> >> > for it - on google, but still... >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Thank you in advance for your help, and sorry if I insist like >> >> >> > that >> >> >> > on >> >> >> > the >> >> >> > "not asking the authorization" thing: I only believe that it could >> >> >> > make >> >> >> > the >> >> >> > gathering of at least some data...much much faster, and the >> >> >> > coverage >> >> >> > of >> >> >> > the >> >> >> > transiki map, at least in its poorest informative power, could be >> >> >> > really >> >> >> > great much more quickly, if we can achieve it legally. And >> >> >> > besides, >> >> >> > it >> >> >> > would >> >> >> > need much less effort, than if we always had to negociate with >> >> >> > every >> >> >> > single >> >> >> > transit agency, to get any single piece of their data, especially >> >> >> > if >> >> >> > they >> >> >> > never answer to anything about these type of questions, for any >> >> >> > reason >> >> >> > they >> >> >> > may have... >> >> >> > Good night >> >> >> > Andrei >> >> >> > >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > legal-talk mailing list >> >> >> > legal-talk@openstreetmap.org >> >> >> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> James Michael DuPont >> >> >> Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania >> >> >> flossk.org flossal.org >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> legal-talk mailing list >> >> >> legal-talk@openstreetmap.org >> >> >> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > legal-talk mailing list >> >> > legal-talk@openstreetmap.org >> >> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> James Michael DuPont >> >> Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania >> >> flossk.org flossal.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> legal-talk mailing list >> >> legal-talk@openstreetmap.org >> >> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > legal-talk mailing list >> > legal-talk@openstreetmap.org >> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> James Michael DuPont >> Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania >> flossk.org flossal.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> legal-talk mailing list >> legal-talk@openstreetmap.org >> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > legal-talk mailing list > legal-talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk > > -- James Michael DuPont Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania flossk.org flossal.org _______________________________________________ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
