Hi, On 21/2/19 5:41, Edward K. Ream wrote: > On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 5:13 PM Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote: > > > As someone who has been inspired by Leo, your work and this community, > I'm glad to know that we are sharing another part of common path > together and I would be honored if, in your Pharo explorations, you > decide to take a look into Grafoscopio... > > I've just installed Grafoscopio. Studying it will be among my first > projects.
Thanks a lot. Grafoscopio was the project I made to learn Pharo/Smalltalk, so maybe you will find newbie code laying around. And I really appreciate your interest and your input will be really worthy. > Are you willing to answer newbie questions? Of course, this is what you have been doing with many of us for several years here... It's the least I can do for you. The only thing is that I may not be so responsive as I would like until the first week of March, once the PhD public dissertation is over. Your momentum once you start to tackle a new project or a problem is well know in this community, so just wait a little bit for me until March to keep with you (but ask anyway, even to give you a small/quick answer). > > I am having installation problems on Windows that likely became > installation problems for Grafoscopio. Perhaps an over-jealous > firewall. Pharo and Grafoscopio are working, but are throwing quite a > few errors. The web hasn't been much help yet. I'll install on Ubuntu > next. Please try Grafoscopio quick install under latest Pharo 7 stable over Linux (64 bits). It is the closest setup to the one I'm using it for the Pharo 7 migration. The Quick Start[1] should have you running in minutes overcoming most of the installation errors you are having. [1] https://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/grafoscopio/doc/tip/readme.md.html#overview/quickstart > > Here are a few of the things I like about Pharo: > > 1. When I awoke this morning I realized that Pharo images are like > VM's. The launcher is an integrated VM manager! So I prefixed the > "Pharo 6.1-32bit(stable)" image with "Grafoscopio". Yes. I remember some short exchange of tweets with the Docker people where they said that they took inspiration from Smalltalk (can't recover the tweet now :-/). They way I use my images is pretty similar and I rename them according to the project I'm developing there, having several lying around (kind of a python virtualenvs or docker containers). The ability to retake your image where ever you leave it, is pretty powerful to keep momentum and recover your kinesthetic and spacial memory, to recover your mental status between coding sessions. > > 2. The language choices are brilliant. Lisp that looks like > objective-c. Nothing hard bound. Everything live and extensible all > the time. It's a treat. Alan Kay talks constantly about the Lisp brilliance and its influence over Smalltalk (where Pharo comes from). When I was a non coder myself, the best introduction I could find to Smalltalk, its history and design decisions was the PhD Thesis "Tracing the Dynabook: A study of Technocultural Transformations"[2] that allow me to see the connection between Smalltalk, Lisp, Logo and other forgotten computer traditions and the distance with the Unix and Operative Systems paradigm and their original approaches over the computer medium. A pretty recommended lecture. [2] https://open.library.ubc.ca/cIRcle/collections/ubctheses/831/items/1.0055157 > > 3. No BDFL. The project isn't dependent on one person. That's true. You can point particular persons inside a small community taking care of particular projects and keeping the momentum, but is definitively a collective work. Pharo is a small community moving fast with relative harmony (and small short lived mail flame wars). Its impressive how moving from Python 2 to 3 has taken ages. Pharo 6 to 7 is taking months. > > 4. I can be a complete newbie again :-) > Is one of the best mindsets to be in. > > On the idea of a Pharo program as a Leonine DAG, I'm thinking that > Pharo programs are kind of a DAG already (some say that they are a > swamp of live objects, talking to each other)... > > Perhaps Pharo's browsers could be improved: You should take a look over Calypso, the default programmable/extensible browser for Pharo 7 [3] https://github.com/dionisiydk/Calypso > > 1. Is there a way to store the state of a Pharo browser permanently, > so it can be reloaded later? > > 2. All the Pharo browsers depend on filters to zoom into the code. > Imo, filters are not good enough. > > Leo outlines are, in effect, permanent "browser" views of the data. > You, the user, are in charge of what is visible (and expanded, and > marked) the next time you open an outline. This is a feature of Leo > that is hidden in plain sight. It would be a major improvement for > any of Pharo's browsers. It could be that filters are not enough. I have been using Spotter to quick find Classes, methods and the Finder to replicate/extend functionality I see in the GUI for my own projects. For me is working kind of find, once I have learn to traverse the system, but the idea of persistent views of the Calypso browser, ala Leo, could be and important one. > > > So I don't know how well one idea map into another (maybe that's is > a useful exploration). But one leonine idea that I think that is > pretty useful in the Pharo world is the one of the outline > self-referential document. Something like that is the stuff I have > been exploring with Grafoscopio (which is still years away from Leo), > but I would love to hear what you have to say on the idea of documents > as live outlines inside Pharo that Leo inspired there. > > I haven't looked at the Grafoscopio code yet. Heck, I'm still learning > how use the browsers effectively. > > I would be interested in adding Leo's DOM (positions and vnodes) go > Grafoscopio, if you approve. Working together on this project would > bring me up to speed on both Pharo and Grafoscopio. Is this something > that interests you? > Positions are the ones that preserve the place where you are located inside the outline, isn't it? I don't have pretty clear what are vnodes. But anyway I would really like to work with you on Grafoscopio, so yes, you have my interest. 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