Jon, I'm not ignoring you, had competition for my attention; in fact you even know her :)
It may be Monday afternoon before I can get back to thi conversation, but that should not prevent anyone else from chiming in, be they so inclined. Right now, I have some more prep to do for tonight's call-in TV show on the immigration issue; more show infor at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TerryLiberty/message/249 -TLP --- In [email protected], Jon Roland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I will explain further what I mean about social components with a > metaphor: baking a cake. Now I am not a cook, so I may get some details > wrong, but I used to watch my grandmother and mother do it, so I have > some idea about how it is done. There are several ingredients: flour, > eggs, sugar, flavoring, coloring, spices, baking soda (which works like > yeast in making bread), etc. You have to put these ingredients together > in a certain order, and blend them in a certain way, and wait a certain > amount of time (for rising), and put it in the right kind of pan, and > glaze it with something like sugar to retain the moisture, and heat it > to certain temperatures for certain periods of time. All of this has to > be done just right, or the result will be a disaster. > Societies are like a cake. Can't make them of only one ingredient, or in > one simple step. A touch of love. Some education. The right amount of > the right kind of discipline. An external threat, perhaps. Cultivation > of a sense of duty. Just the right measure of some penalties (coercion). > If you do enough of the right things in the right order for almost > everyone, you will get an overwhelming majority who live in harmony, and > who internalize their sense of duty as a bonding experience they come to > experience as love. But you need a measure of coercion in there to get > things started, to "prime the pump" as it were. You keep the threat of > coercion in the background to reinforce the common sense of duty, > because humans are funny about abandoning their duty or even their love > if anyone is allowed to "get away" without doing his part. That is why > the IRS can enforce unconstitutional tax rules. Even jurors who know the > rules are unlawful may still convict someone for failing to file and pay > his "taxes" because it is perceived as "getting away" with doing what > they were all required to do, even if they only yielded to unlawful > coercion in doing. It's a herd thing. No coercion in the background, > even if it is almost never applied, and the whole thing can fall apart. > So don't think in simple Pavlovian terms of direct, active coercion. In > a real society it is much more complicated than that. A touch of > coercion, properly applied, neither too much nor too little, can drive > the process by which people acquire a sense of duty, then internalize > that sense into bonding that comes to be experienced as love. > And all that also serves to encourage people to be just to one another, > to discourage violations of rights, and thereby reduce the need for > courts to intervene, and if they do, to make them more efficient, and > their decisions more accepted. Dysfunctional justice systems are a > symptom of dysfunctional societies, and there may be no way to fix the > justice systems without fixing the society. On the other hand, feedback > being what it is, there may be no way to fix the societies without > fixing their justice systems. A complete repair will therefore involve > fixing both in tandem. > > Terry L Parker wrote: > > >Jon, if you don't think that there's enough love manifesting > >in the world, stop re-defining opportunities for its expression > >as 'duties' :) > > > >Despite my being born and bred in NEW YORK CITY ('git a rope') > >I have a lot more faith in people's 'love' capacity then you > >apparently. You went back DECADES to find that one example > >of not enought love in my home town (NYC). You ignored the > >day in day out counter examples. Most will never be 'famous' > >but some are: Bernard Getz being one. Remember, the subway > >guy with a gun who 'terrorized' thugs. > > > >Of cours the fear driven statists in my home town of NYC came > >down on him very hard; remember? > > > >A common feeling when pan-handled by strangers on the street > >in NYC is that one has already given enough through the power > >of govt coerced obligation. That belief that 'people are no > >damn good' so us elites will have to physically force them to > >'do right' Even sounds pathetic when ya say it that way. :( > > > >Coercing obligatory acts that should have been the province of > >IDEALISTIC 'love' (not just personal sentimentality) are > >destructive to society. Driven by, imo, exagerated fear that > >'people are no damn good' a policy of employing govt to force > >what should have been done out of genuine caring, DISPLACES > >the responses of natural caring. (btw,same arguments are made > >regarding other things 'wanted' as 'rights') > > > >But, despite this destructive influence via coerced caring, > >during 911 the were MANY 'above and beyond duty' responses by > >New Yorkers; even to the point of death (included a libertarian > >hero too) There are more examples but I'm not sure that you > >and I can agree about current human nature, Jon. > > > >I will say this, you and I 'love' the best of American ideals > >and no one could make us do the stuff that we do already :) > > > > > >-Terry Liberty Parker > > > >'Real world' experiment in LIBERTARIAN community became famous > >at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LibertyProspects/message/2569 > > > >'Real World' experiment in LIBERTARIAN nation building > >at http://www.constitution.org > > > > > > > > > > -- > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Our efforts depend on donations from people like you. 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