In a libertarian country a government title deed should not be an
automatic guarntee of proof of ownership if the government took
land and titled it to others or titled land taken by others and I
think there is enough evidence even in the recent past that
governments took land away from owners and gave it to others. Titles
and even bills of sales can be entered as evidence and may actually
make the case but they aren't a gurantee. Posseion and use is nine
tenths of the law, so until evidence can be shown other wise it is
assumed the user owns the land but it might be very foolish for a
squatter to take that stand if he signed a
lease.
Would say a custom officer or a park ranger count as a user in
the name of the federal government? Maybe but does the federal
government have employees all along the border and at ever sea dock
and what if the employees quit their job and join with the locals in
posseing the land the federal government claims, maybe the federal
government failed to get the permission of the state legisltor to use
that land, maybe the state legisltor failed to get the consent of the
owners, maybe the locals are the just owners.--- In
[email protected], <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Do you mean the real property over which the goods move, or the
goods themnselves. In the case of the real estate a title deed would
do so and in the case of the goods, a bill of sale and or loading.
>
> BWS
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Terry L Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Saturday, April 15, 2006 3:18 pm
> Subject: [Libertarian] Re: Tariffs
>
> > Can legitimacy be determined for ownership of the property bounded
> > by borders for which tariffs are proposed?
> >
> > -Terry Liberty Parker
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TerryLiberty
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In [email protected], "terry12622000"
> > <cottondrop@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > ok people how many of you think Paul has proven his case? If
> > you
> > > think Traiffs are just are some importers justly exempt? What
is
> > the
> > > just amount owed and why is that amount just?--- In
> > > [email protected], "Paul" <ptireland@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Once again, you make false and baseless claims and then
> > suggest
> > they
> > > > are truthful and I'm lying. The indisputable fact is tariffs
> > are
> > > not
> > > > theft or coercion or an initiation of force, and you can't
> > admit
> > it
> > > > because your whole warped world view would come crashing
down.
> >
> > I've
> > > > proven a dozens and dozens and dozens of times that tariffs
> > are
> > not
> > > > theft and are not an initiation of force, yet you continue to
> > > say "Nuh
> > > > uh!!!" and ignore the truth. It's really becoming comical to
> > see
> > > such
> > > > childishness in your argument.
> > > >
> > > > Now you'll falsely claim I didn't prove that tariffs aren't
> > theft,
> > > > and you'll say that I'm the one ignoring the truth. You'll
> > say
> > > that
> > > > what I'm saying violates libertarianism when in fact it is
YOU
> > who
> > > is
> > > > promoting the initiation of force in the form of theft and
> > trespass.
> > > >
> > > > Then I'll correct you again, and it will start over.
> > Beginning
> > to
> > > see
> > > > a pattern yet?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In [email protected], <boyd.w.smith@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > That is true despite the overwhelming proof, and it being
> > > > continuously shown you have been true to yourself and never
> > admitted
> > > > this truth .
> > > > >
> > > > > America is owned by Americans, corporations, partnerships,
> > > Japanese,
> > > > Mexicans, and many other people of variant nationalities.
And yes
> > > > everything within the imaginary lines is claimed by the
> > government
> > > of
> > > > America. And they engage in theft and lies and murder on
> > a ,massive
> > > > scale. And you keep saying that it is the people in
> > government
> > who
> > > > are responsible. But the people we get are part of the
system
> > that
> > > is
> > > > given. If we only go down to the stated constitutional
limits
> > we
> > > will
> > > > very soon be back where we are now.
> > > > >
> > > > > Your mall example/analogy is stupid and does not apply. A
> > mall
> > > is a
> > > > voluntary association, a country is an involuntary
> > association.
> > > > Management is hired, governments are elected. The system is
> > > broken.
> > > > Simply because it was in place before I was born does not
make it
> > > > right. I as an individual was never given my chance to agree
or
> > > > disagree. America is not in any way a mall. The analogy
> > sucks.
> > If
> > > > it were valid, I would be able to open up another mall and
attract
> > > > customers.
> > > > >
> > > > > Our country is what it is. A geographic area within a
> > common
> > set
> > > of
> > > > borders.
> > > > >
> > > > > The way things are are the way things are, but that does
not
> > mean
> > > > that they are morally correct. And that is my point.
Tarrifs are
> > > > theft (proven over and over again) and theft is wrong. The
> > current
> > > > situation in Iraq is wrong. The drug war is wrong.
> > Initiation of
> > > > force against innocent people is wrong. This is libertarian
> > > philosohy.
> > > > >
> > > > > You can't say that just because you want to have something
> > it is
> > > > therefore morally correct.
> > > > >
> > > > > BWS
> > > > > From: Paul <ptireland@>
> > > > > > Actually I've never said a small bit of theft is ok, nor
> > have
> > I
> > > said
> > > > > > that tariffs are theft, or any initiation of force
because
> > they
> > > are
> > > > > > not. Also, I have explained how the people of America
are
> > > harmed.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Read this part slowly so you will understand.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > America is owned by Americans. Everything within the
> > borders
> > > of the
> > > > > > United States is a part of America.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For the purpose of clarity, I'll use the same perfect
> > example
> > I
> > > used
> > > > > > before.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Let's say America is a mall. The stockholders (citizens)
> > of
> > the
> > > > > > American Mall have hired a management company (U.S.
> > Government)
> > > to
> > > > > > provide security for the mall, and to run the day to day
> > > > > > operations of the mall such as paying the utility bills,
> > fixing
> > > > leaks in the
> > > > > > roof, etc.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now let's say the stockholders have directed that those
> > stores
> > > selling
> > > > > > goods which were made in the craft shops of the mall
don't
> > have
> > > to pay
> > > > > > rent (tariffs), but those who sell goods manufactured
> > outside
> > > the mall
> > > > > > must pay rent and they have directed the management
> > company to
> > > > > > implement this directive (Constitution). The mall has
> > been
> > run
> > > like
> > > > > > this since before you were born, but when you were born,
> > you
> > > > > > became a stockholder of the mall.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now you want to open a store in the mall with goods made
> > from
> > > outside
> > > > > > the mall. It doesn't matter if you are a stockholder of
> > the
> > > mall.
> > > > > > The rules have been established for a long time. Even if
> > you
> > > paid for
> > > > > > the products with your own money, it does NOT give you
the
> > > right to
> > > > > > open a shop in the mall to sell those goods without
paying
> > rent
> > > to the
> > > > > > management company as anyone else is required to do in
the
> > same
> > > > > > situation.
> > > > > > If you sneak goods through the backdoor and start selling
> > them
> > > in the
> > > > > > mall, you're infringing on the people who genuinely do
> > have a
> > > > > > right to be in the mall either because they paid rent to
sell
> > > > goods in the mall
> > > > > > or because they're selling goods made within the mall.
> > You
> > are
> > > > > > increasing the amount of competition in the mall and not
> > > contributing
> > > > > > to the costs of the mall which you genuinely owe to it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If the management company sends their security guards to
> > kick
> > > you out
> > > > > > of the mall, your rights have not been infringed. You
had
> > no
> > > > > > right to sell your goods in the mall in the first place.
> > If
> > > they
> > > > use force
> > > > > > against you, it's not an initiation of force, it's a use
> > of
> > > DEFENSIVE
> > > > > > force after you have committed crimes against the
> > stockholders
> > > of the
> > > > > > mall .... namely trespass and theft.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your being a stockholder of the corporation does not
> > entitle
> > > you to
> > > > > > sell outside goods in the mall without paying rent. Your
> > > > > > ownership of the property you want to sell does not grant
> > you
> > > the
> > > > right to sell
> > > > > > goods in the mall without paying rent. If the mall
> > charges
> > > rent, it
> > > > > > is not infringing on your property rights, and not taking
> > a
> > > > > > portion of your property. If you buy outside goods
> > knowing
> > the
> > > > mall charges rent
> > > > > > to sell them, you have no valid complaint when you get
the
> > bill
> > > for
> > > > > > the rent.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The rent has nothing to do with your ownership rights and
> > is
> > > not an
> > > > > > initiation of force.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If someone says they "own" the mall, they are lying, they
> > are
> > > just one
> > > > > > stockholder of 350 million and the stockholders before
> > them
> > > voted and
> > > > > > setup the rules long ago. Just because the rules were
> > made
> > > before one
> > > > > > particular stockholder was born and he was given stock
> > does
> > not
> > > mean
> > > > > > that stockholder is immune from the directives given to
> > the
> > > mall by
> > > > > > the stockholders before him.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is logical, libertarian, and irrefutable.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ForumWebSiteAt http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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