Dear Mark: You always make me feel good about myself! The way I first found
out about anarchy and the founding fathers was when I was visiting a professor
in Eureka, California. He had me to look into something called "The
Encyclopedia of Ideas" under "Anarchy." There was a lengthy and fascinating
article of, maybe, 50 pages, or so. Anarchy was one of the concepts those
participating in the "Enlightenment" were fascinated with. Of course, so were
those participating in the French Revolution. "The Encyclopedia of Ideas" was
part of the library of Humboldt University.
I will bet that Von Mises University would help you to find out about the
philosophical nexus, including the going bias towards anarchy, that produced
the founding fathers.
Also, the mother of the author Francis Trollope visited the United States
when it was rather new and wrote a book about the experience. She was a
Briton--to the core--and absolutely disgusted with these American rebels,
engaged in what she saw as a puerile effort to escape the necessity of decency
(and good manners) and loyalty to the Crown which, as anyone could see, should
govern everyone. She gives many examples of the raw, uncultured behaviors of
Americans and sometimes uses the word "Anarchist"--capitalized--to refer to any
ill-mannered, low-class, individual American in an ironic way. ( She really
thought these persons incapable of ANY thought). I read that book. I am sure
it is still in print. Mary Trollope was probably not very intelligent, but she
gives you a good idea of how things felt then. Mary.
mark robert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Mary,
As always, your thoughts are truly insightful. Besides realizing
that our founding fathers were regarded as anarchists, what an
insight that they thought of themselves as such! Of course it
makes total sense, but why have I not heard this before? Of
course I am not extremely well read, but you would think this
angle would have been better exploited in these circles - I've
NEVER heard it before. I think it would be great if this specific
information would be better publicized. Where could I find some
quotes?
-Mark
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Dear Mark: I think the question you are asking is exactly the
one Thomas Jefferson, et. al., were asking themselves when
creating the US Constitution. They ended up "enforcing"
anarchy--after a fashion--by declaring that the government "shall
not" do this, and "may not" do that" and "is barred from" doing
the other. They created what was probably the world's first
antigovernment government.
That is, just as you put it: They wanted to outlaw law; they
wanted to enforce non-force.
As people have pointed out since, this government may readily
trip over its own feet when it is trying to do something (such as
form and direct a national police force) which other governments
do easily. Of course, it is DESIGNED to fail in such an
endeavor).
The international community of their own time identified the US
founding fathers as "anarchists." They often referred them as
"anarchists." They saw great irony in a bunch of anarchists
engrossed in creation of a government, and so do I.
Most Conservatives are appalled at the idea that the founding
fathers were anarchists, DESPITE THE FACT THE FOUNDING FATHERS,
THEMSELVES, TENDED TO APPLY THE TERM TO THEMSELVES.
You very well know what was the fate of the antigovernment
government. As long as, and insofar as, it was understood--which
is to say, at first--it was a great improvement over what had
been & was a great success, benefitting people as never before.
By now, though, virtually everyone has forgotten about the
"antigovernment" part, & the USA is no better a government under
which to live than that of Canada or Great Britain, or .... It
is just a government.
These are my thoughts.
mark robert wrote:
Hope this isn't off topic ("immigration" / "anarchism"?), but I
was just thinking.
Since technically anarchism (by the NAP ["good"?] definition /
"anarcho-capitalism"?), cannot enFORCE itself (or be enforced) in
societal terms, it can not ever have been "installed" or
"legislated" or "employed" or "practiced" universally (as a
system) by any large group of people anywhere. That's my comment
on the world history of anarchism.
But its history also seems to suggest something similar about its
future. In terms of a formal political system, it doesn't seem
logical - as "formal" and "political" implies universal
enforcement. It doesn't seem like it can ever be anything more
than individual decisions and informal agreements.
It's a conundrum: How do you outlaw law? Or the inverse: How do
you force non-force?
Of course that doesn't necessarily say anything negative about
its ethical merits. Nor does it say anything negative about the
eventual possibility of all individuals making those decisions
and agreements. I suspect that, as history has shown, technology
will further the autonomy of the individual and therefore the
feasibility of good anarchy. Technology has always been the
underestimated factor in the development of civilization and
individualism. But it still begs the question: At what
theoretical point do you, as a society, officially have
anarchism? What if 999 out of 1000 members of a society make the
informal agreement to observe the NAP, to the extent of
eliminating govt?
Does the one dissenter/aggressor disqualify the label? Or even
more analytical: What if all 1000 agreed, but then a violation
occurred? At that point in time, is the anarchy dissolved.
I'm not sure whether I am trying to restrict the definition of
anarchy down to near absolute zero, or I am just trying to define
it for myself. TLP, I'm sure you, and others, can comment.
Thanks.
-Mark
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