abortion issue with fellow libertarians. I don't see a point in it
but I will say one last time what I think. The prsent position of the
LP platform may be the best way because it appears it does not make
abortion an issue. Best I remember it says the government should not
make abortion an issue and I think even prolife libertarians if they
think about it can live with that, abortion is not a government
issue, murder would be but there must be enough evidence to convince
a prosecutor, a grandjury and a jury that a murder occur. The woman
has a right to plead self defense and prolife libertarians if you are
really libertarians you would not want her punished for defending her
self. Of course the burden of proof is on the state to proof it was
not self defense, very few cases are likely to make it before the
grandjury, fewer would convince all 12 regular jury members beyond a
reasonable doubt that self defense did not occur, even fewer cases
against the defedent would lose on appeal. It is very likely no
defedent would ever serve time unless she bragged about killing the
fetus. So charging a mother for murder for aborting the fetus will
be almost unenforcable but that does not means charges should never
be brought if in fact a fetus is a living human being, a
person.
Pro Choice libertarians surely if a fetus can be proven to be a
living human being person and that a murder of that person occured
surely it would be justice to bring charges of murder if in fact it
was not self defense, surely murder of a living human being person
should never be accepted as just by any libertarian. Prochoice
libertarians I will say the same thing to you that I say to the
prolife libertarians who do not accept self defense, you are not a
libertarian if you are not looking for true
justice.
NOw that I have P Oed nearly everyone I'm going to shut up on
the subject because its not getting anywhere, I just had to say my
piece on the subject one more time to get it off my mind.--- In
[email protected], "Terry L Parker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Mark, I have NOT taken a cemented in position; I'm raising
questions
> which need more than automatic presumptions as answers:
>
> Personhood- At what point do rights and obligations accrue to a
> developing human individual?
>
> The spectrum of opinion is from the moment of conception
(spiritual,
> before physical zygote) thru physical gestation to birth and a few
> years beyond (human infanticide is actually NOT regarded as murder
in
> some societies)
>
> MoreAt http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian/message/48519
>
>
> *IF* you're taking the position that infanticide is also murder
> (unjustifiable homicide) then present a rational case. Many
ass/u/me
> that normal human infants are actual persons (not just declared as
> such by the US Constitution).
>
> How and why is regarding infants as persons justified by a
universal
> application of libertarianism?
>
>
> -Terry Liberty Parker
> LIMITED vs UNIVERSAL Libertarianism
> at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian/message/48521
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "mark robert" <colowe@> wrote:
> >
> > TLP,
> >
> > Yes, I've read your criteria before. But I have to confess, I'm
> > having trouble comprehending your/its position on infants,
> > especially considering your other comments on infanticide. Maybe
> > you could explain a little further?
> >
> > -Mark
> >
> >
> >
> > ************
> > {American jurors have complete Constitutional authority to vote
> > "not guilty" based on nothing more than a disagreement with the
> > case, no matter the evidence - despite the judge's instructions.
> > There is absolutely no obligation to vote "guilty" to arrive at a
> > unanimous verdict. Get on a jury, stand your ground, and fulfill
> > its other main purpose: to counteract abusive government and
> > unjust lawsuits.
> > See www.fija.org
> > [Please adopt this as your own signature.] }
> >
> > -------------------
> >
> >
> >
> > Here are *my* 'tentative' COMBINED criteria for
> > who or what gets to be regarded as a person:
> >
> > sentience- ability to consider essential
> > information about one's environment
> > (surroundings, situation and so on)
> >
> > agency- power to act in one's environment
> >
> > conscious volition- free will to intervene between
> > stimulus and response by making meaningful choices;
> > without which one can not be 'responsible' for
> > one's actions that interface with other persons
> >
> > Imo, 'personhood' is about individual sovereigns
> > (whose 'domains' are their own bodies and
> > justly held possessions) being free moral agents;
> > which still leaves room for acts of compassion :)
> >
> > Domains http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian/message/30419
> >
> > Morals http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian/message/37899
> >
> >
> > There are three essential areas of moral concern about human
> > abortion:
> >
> > 1. Personhood- At what point do rights and obligations accrue to
> > a
> > developing individual?
> >
> > The spectrum of opinion is from the moment of conception
> > (spiritual, before physical zygote) thru physical gestation to
> > birth
> > and a few years beyond (human infanticide is actually NOT
> > regarded as
> > murder in some societies)
> >
> > 2. Obligation- If a developing individual is deemed a 'person'
> > what, if any, duty to that person exists, to provide support?
> >
> > No person has an 'automatic' claim on the resources of another
> > person to provide them with support. But, did voluntary action
> > by the 'host' person create an obligation to the 'dependent'
> > person?
> >
> > 3. Fatal Eviction- If a 'host' person has a right to deny support
> > to a 'dependent' person, does said 'host' person's right to
> > 'evict'
> > the 'dependent' person include doing so in such a way that is
> > fatal
> > to said dependent?
> >
> >
> > People of sincere conscience can be found on all sides of these
> > three
> > concerns.
> >
> >
> > 'The unexamined life is not worth living'
> > Socrates, in Plato, Dialogues, Apology
> > Greek philosopher in Athens (469 BC - 399 BC)
> > at http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/24198.html
> >
> > Please also enter the word consciousness at http://www.Google.com
> >
> >
> > -Terry Liberty Parker
> > see: 'Your Freedom and the Rigths of Others'
> > at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian/message/22990
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In [email protected], "mark robert" <colowe@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > TLP,
> > >
> > > Sorry, I'm still missing your point. Or maybe you have none
> > other
> > > than to disprove mine. Surely you are not supporting the
> > position
> > > that infants do not have rights and can be killed. Maybe I'm
> > > being dense, but you're gonna have to elaborate more than what
> > > you have to get this one through to this ole boy.
> > >
> > > -Mark
> > >
> > >
> >
>
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