David, you raised a question about 'group rights' which I have answered in a way with which you apparently agree.
Since you now want to switch topics to abortion I've changed the subject line and now submit this: It's intellectually and spiritually lazy to default to a comfortable prejudice shared by one's associates! The term 'personhood' refers to the 'property' of being able to have rights & duties (obligations). Adult human beings are human lifeforms with apparent 'personhood' for example. Historically, we've been too quick to discount personhood when doing so was immoral; for example, slavery (person discounted to another person's property) Determination of 'personhood' impacts not only the contemporary human abortion issue but also the morality of other life form encounters to come. The intellectual & spiritual 'homework' yet to be done by many, is to develop a working criteria for who (or what) gets to be considered a person AND why. If you want that criteria to be generally acknowledged it has to be as rational and objective as possible. Here are *my* 'tentative' COMBINED criteria for who or what gets to be regarded as a person: sentience- ability to consider essential information about one's environment (surroundings, situation and so on) agency- power to act in one's environment conscious volition- free will to intervene between stimulus and response by making meaningful choices; without which one can not be 'responsible' for one's actions that interface with other persons Imo, 'personhood' is about individual sovereigns (whose 'domains' are their own bodies and justly held possessions) being free moral agents; which still leaves room for acts of compassion :) Domains http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian/message/30419 Morals http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian/message/37899 There are three essential areas of moral concern about human abortion: 1. Personhood- At what point do rights and obligations accrue to a developing individual? The spectrum of opinion is from the moment of conception (spiritual, before physical zygote) thru physical gestation to birth and a few years beyond (human infanticide is actually NOT regarded as murder in some societies) 2. Obligation- If a developing individual is deemed a 'person' what, if any, duty to that person exists, to provide support? No person has an 'automatic' claim on the resources of another person to provide them with support. But, did voluntary action by the 'host' person create an obligation to the 'dependent' person? 3. Fatal Eviction- If a 'host' person has a right to deny support to a 'dependent' person, does said 'host' person's right to 'evict' the 'dependent' person include doing so in such a way that is fatal to said dependent? People of sincere conscience can be found on all sides of these three concerns. 'The unexamined life is not worth living' Socrates, in Plato, Dialogues, Apology Greek philosopher in Athens (469 BC - 399 BC) at http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/24198.html Please also enter the word consciousness at http://www.Google.com -Terry Liberty Parker see: 'Your Freedom and the Rigths of Others' at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian/message/22990 --- In [email protected], "David Macko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I totally agree with you that every woman has a right to control her own body. > I also believe that she has a right to give it to any willing man for as long as > they both live, especially for such considerations as his letting her wear his > name, protecting her and not having other women serve his pleasure. > I do not believe that any preborn child which she may be carrying in her > body is part of her body, nor does she have a right to kill it, the inevitable > result of expulsion. As you can see, my position on women is the most L/libertarian position > possible. > > For life and liberty, > David Macko > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Terry L Parker > To: [email protected] > Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 8:09 PM > Subject: [Libertarian] Re: men's rights > > > David, the right of a woman to use her body as she sees fit is an > individual HUMAN right of each person to control their justly held > possessions. > > Thus, you, as a male, have NO 'inherent, inalienable right' to > unconsensually control a woman's body; you must get her in a willing > mood first :) > > Do you believe otherwise? > > -Terry Liberty Parker > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian > > --- In [email protected], "David Macko" <dmacko@> wrote: > > > > Do you agree that only individuals have rights, since, if you > > must be a member of a group to have rights, you have no > > inherent, inalienable rights? > > > > For life and liberty, > > David Macko > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Terry L Parker > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 7:12 PM > > Subject: [Libertarian] Re: men's rights > > > > > > David, thanks for posting the URL (link) but I do NOT agree with > your > > conclusion that repeal of this LP plank will somehow help "men's > > rights" > > > > > > www.LP.org: Women's Rights and Abortion > > > > The Issue: Recognizing that abortion is a very sensitive issue > and > > that people, including libertarians, can hold good-faith views on > > both sides, we believe the government should be kept out of the > > question. We condemn state-funded and state-mandated abortions. > It is > > particularly harsh to force someone who believes that abortion is > > murder to pay for another's abortion. > > > > The Principle: We hold that individual rights should not be > denied or > > abridged on the basis of sex. It is the right and obligation of > the > > pregnant woman, not the state, to decide the desirability or > > appropriateness of prenatal testing, Caesarean births, fetal > surgery, > > voluntary surrogacy arrangements and/or home births. > > > > Solutions: We oppose all laws likely to impose restrictions on > free > > choice and private property or to widen tyranny through reverse > > discrimination. > > > > Transitional Action: We call for repeal of all laws > discriminating > > against women, such as protective labor laws and marriage or > divorce > > laws which deny the full rights of men and women. > > > > http://www.lp.org/issues/platform_all.shtml#womerigh > > > > -TLP > > > > --- In [email protected], "David Macko" <dmacko@> wrote: > > > > > > http://www.lp.org/issues/platform_all.shtml#womerigh > > > > > > Go to Issues. Platform shows up underneath. Then to Women's > Rights. > > > To reiterate, groups don't have rights. This plank should be > > repealed. > > > > > > For life and liberty, > > > David Macko > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Terry L Parker > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 4:11 PM > > > Subject: [Libertarian] Re: men's rights > > > > > > > > > What is the URL at www.LP.org for the "women's rights plank" to > > which > > > you make reference? > > > > > > -TLP > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "J R" <vjklander@> wrote: > > > > > > > > If the LP is going to have a Women's Rights plank, then it > > seems only > > > > logical to also have a Men's Rights plank. > > > > > > > > Case in point: > > > > > > > > http://www.ksat.com/family/9402637/detail.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------ Yahoo! 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