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Bill Hartwell wrote:
On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 10:45 PM, goat! <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Such is the reason that enforcing national borders is just as important
as enforcing your own private borders. The concept is exactly the same
(and if one is a fiction, then so is the other).
Sorry, but this does not follow. Government "property" is a fiction.
It is stolen from private citizens. Private property is inherent to
the nature of human beings.
All property rights are just as much a fiction,
except were preserved by force in the absents of government
(though most here I'm sure will agree is the nature of government),
or a highly enlightened society that had no need of government, that
threat of force to steal others property wasn't an issue (and thus the
need to protect it by force), which has never lasted long if, at all
except perhaps in the absents of many people. In fact, the commons was
probably predominant over any concept of private property long before,
as in nomadic or tribal lands.
For example, take the natives of this land before the Europeans came.
Most tribes had their own lands or commons, and as a matter of survival,
they protected it from other tribes.
Of course, we aren't just talking government land on the border,
which some in the libertarian community tend to ignore, that private
land owners have been prosecuted for trying to keep people from trespassing.
In actuality though, not all property was stolen from individuals
by government, if it was unclaimed to begin with or bought from those
who already claimed it, etc, though I will certainly agree that most
property the government holds, less public right of ways (such as roads)
should be placed into the hands of as many individuals in smaller
partials that would still make it self sufficient for them, as possible.
More then likely government, was invented to secure private property
rights above and beyond what could be reasonably used or held individual
or jointly (and such is the nature and beginning of government,
and thus perfectly legitimate to be owned by, and thus would seem not a
fiction as you assert), by those who came to steal them from others to
begin with.
Thus what you really despise or claim is a fiction (That is government
or borders, whether private or public), is exactly what is needed for
you to maintain what you claim isn't a fiction.
Of course as I said, some "libertarians" want to expand the already
positive right (outside any purely property right) of liberty on the
public highways to even more outside what it is already extend (to
citizens) to the rest of th world, which is very Marxist,
which certainly explains to some extent why the ptb are for it.
Seriously though, some of you really need to do some study of
the evolution of law and government, as your friction of private
property, outside that held by force or an enlightened people, was
invented relatively recently, and your dogma on the matter just doesn't
hold up to investigation or reason.
Here is a good one to get you started.
<http://books.google.com/books?id=cAoAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA25&dq=Corpus+Juris&lr=&as_brr=1>
Goat
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